FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[kiichiro]

What do you estimate as cost for a dry sump setup? Interested

[Element Tuning]

I've got mostly bad news as the new oil pump is not a direct bolt on. It requires welding and possibly the Hydra EMS as one of the exhaust cam position sensors is in a different location. The pump itself is better for sure and I'll get more into it after I test but since I have a Hydra we are moving forward with it since I can alter the reference angles and if I have to I can run the exhaust cams in "open loop."

I'll post some pictures and more details about the pump a little later.

Stay tuned,
Phil Grabow

[xwd]

I thought I saw one car/shop in AU running a dry sump system. They are the ones with the turbo reversed from most kits and the downpipe is running down what would be our driver side of the engine bay. Good point about the linear nature of oil pressure rise and not so linear nature of turbo torque.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

People also question high viscosity oils but keep in mind that most oils drop a grade level once used or when they pass 220 degrees or so. Its called "shearing" and you really need to watch out for this with your zero weight oils as they tend to drop out of grade at high temps due to the chemistry of the oils required to have that viscosity. One of the only oils that stays in "grade" is Redline and it's why we use it for our EJ race engines and will also for the FA20 motors.

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

You guys should try Miller's Nanodrive racing oil, I think it's a perfect match for this car.

It is more durable (tested to last at least 1600 race miles on one fill) and offers better friction reduction and bearing protection than other race oils.

The FA20 responds very well to it and so do other dedicated race engines.

I've been using it for a while now on and off track. Great stuff.

Ester based oils like Red Line, Motul 300V, and Millers Nanodrive should be the only oils used in cars that see track time, IMO.

Volatility: The polarity of the ester molecules causes them to be attracted to one another and this intermolecular attraction requires more energy (heat) for the esters to transfer from a liquid to a gaseous state. Therefore, at a given molecular weight or viscosity, the esters will exhibit a lower vapor pressure which translates into a higher flash point and a lower rate of evaporation for the lubricant. Generally speaking, the more ester linkages in a specific ester, the higher its flash point and the lower its volatility.

Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

More reading here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729337/Complex_Esters#Post729337

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729310/1/Esters,_General


-Dennis

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Ester based oils like Red Line, Motul 300V, and Millers Nanodrive should be the only oils used in cars that see track time, IMO.

Volatility: The polarity of the ester molecules causes them to be attracted to one another and this intermolecular attraction requires more energy (heat) for the esters to transfer from a liquid to a gaseous state. Therefore, at a given molecular weight or viscosity, the esters will exhibit a lower vapor pressure which translates into a higher flash point and a lower rate of evaporation for the lubricant. Generally speaking, the more ester linkages in a specific ester, the higher its flash point and the lower its volatility.

Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

More reading here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729337/Complex_Esters#Post729337

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729310/1/Esters,_General


-Dennis

Definitely a topic for Bobs The Oil Guy and not here. LOL! We get a lot of good information over there to back up a lot of our experiences with the various brands and types of oils we've test both on the race track and on the street.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by dwx

I thought I saw one car/shop in AU running a dry sump system. They are the ones with the turbo reversed from most kits and the downpipe is running down what would be our driver side of the engine bay. Good point about the linear nature of oil pressure rise and not so linear nature of turbo torque.

There are one off dry sumps out there and I know of a couple who have done it. For my personal use jumping straight to one is the best for me but I would like to test and come up with some solutions for the average customer or user first. I'm hoping I wait long enough so I won't have to CNC my own dry sump pan and I can just buy one

Lots of "customizing" to make this pump work!!!! Way more than I ever anticipated but I'm use to paving the way.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[mike the snake]

I had a thought.

What about using an auxiliary oil pump, driven off the cam like the AVO pump, with it's own pickup in the pan, with a one-way check valve?

This would then have 2 oil pumps working, and if for some reason the aux pump were to lose suction/pressure it wouldn't affect the flow of the OEM pump.

You'd have extra pressure and voulme, and extra insurance at high lateral G's, for very low cost and trouble.

If either pump were to lose pressure, the other pump would still be working.

You could even have a small sump tank like on the AVO turbo kit, so even if the pickups lost suction you'd have a small resevoir to pull from.

The more I think about this idea, the better it sounds!

[Calum]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

I had a thought.

What about using an auxiliary oil pump, driven off the cam like the AVO pump, with it's own pickup in the pan, with a one-way check valve?

This would then have 2 oil pumps working, and if for some reason the aux pump were to lose suction/pressure it wouldn't affect the flow of the OEM pump.

You'd have extra pressure and volume, and extra insurance at high lateral G's, for very low cost and trouble.

If either pump were to lose pressure, the other pump would still be working.

You could even have a small sump tank like on the AVO turbo kit, so even if the pickups lost suction you'd have a small resevoir to pull from.

The more I think about this idea, the better it sounds!

You might want to look up accusump. It's not the same thing, but it would give some of the benefits you listed for less money.

[mike the snake]

I'm aware of accusump.

I was thinking of making a "poor man's dry sump" and trying to solve the oiling issues Element Tuning is having without spending thousands on a real dry sump system.

A redundant, dual pump (stock pump AND cam driven aux pump) with separate pickups in the pan, and maybe a small sump on the aux pump, might just give the extra pressure and volume needed at high G, high RPM loads, and offer extra protection in case one of the pickups loses suction at high G's.

The aux pump could even be plumbed in at a different spot, maybe where it's most needed, otherwise it could be plumbed in at the sandwich plate maybe.

An in-line, one-way check valve on the aux pump would ensure one pump would always be working, and a small sump on the aux pump would ensure no pressure loss even when both pumps lost suction at the pickups in the pan at high side G's.

[Element Tuning]

Sorry for the delayed reply. It's been so busy building engines and tuning here I haven't had much time to test or share what we've tested on our FRS.

So what you are looking at are the two oil pumps from the FRS/BRZ and the 2015 WRX timing cover and oil pump.



There are some significant differences and improvements (we feel) with the 2015 WRX's 14mm oil pump. The first thing you'll notice is how much thicker the pump gear is (12mm vs. 14mm). The other item is the oil pump gear tooth profile. The turbo uses a traditional tooth profile where the BRZ uses something I've never seen before with the stepped profile. We suspect based on the oil pressures that this design is more efficient at low RPM creating less pressure and drag and at higher RPM it allows for more oil pressure.

The oil pump cover also shows some differences in the oil passages that appear to be done for the sake of more oil volume. The timing covers themselves are also different unfortunately. I'll let you guys see if you can tell the differences but it required welding, different sensors, and running the Hydra EMS with a totally different cam trigger setup.

At first I was really happy with the oil pressure I was getting. When cold it was the typical 110-120 psi but once warmed up we would see oil pressures in the 80s while cruising and it would hold to 70-80 psi to 9k RPM. Cruising would drop some but not a ton. Idle oil pressure was over 20 psi.

Now unfortunately after driving awhile and a few high power pulls, the high oil temps would drop the oil pressure and I would see cruise oil pressures around 50 psi and high RPM would barely hit 60 psi. If I did a few pulls, shut the engine off or 5-10 minutes while I did some Hydra tuning changes, I would then get nice oil pressure again (at least 70+ psi) for a couple high power pulls.

I have a video over on instagram if you want to check it out.
http://instagram.com/p/pgidojNvVB/

I do think adding a good oil/air intercooler would probably make oil pressure good enough for street use. Keep in mind I'm running an Element Tuning built motor, big valve heads, Hydra EMS, big intercooler, and running 20 psi on pump gas with a 60 trim. If you're not running over 300 hp your requirements will be less.

In the end this is no bolt on solution and absolutely requires a Hydra EMS as the standard cam/crank triggers will not work. The other issues is the crank trigger wheel is different on the 2015 WRX from the FRS/BRZ. I was really hoping this was a solution we could offer to our engine customers and something the community as a whole could benefit from but at this point this is a "race" only type of improvement.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Element Tuning]

Also it's important to note I am recording oil pressure at the mains which is the oil galley plug next to the AC. This is the actual oil pressure your main and rod bearings see which is the most critical. If you take the pressure at the OEM pressure switch it will read higher somewhat.

I chose to use the AC area galley plug because on the EJ engines this is where I reference what I consider "adequate" oil pressure. The EJ motors however have different oil distribution which I've covered in an earlier post.

[mike the snake]

Is it safe to conclude that at higher temps the oil is thinning out and causing the lower pressures?

If so, maybe keeping the temps lower might be all that's needed to maintain the pressure needed for high performance?

I read about lots of people reporting much lower temps after installing oil coolers, especially under racing conditions, where temps stabilized at around 210-230.

Do you think keeping the temps low will keep the oil pressure up high enough for racing?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Is it safe to conclude that at higher temps the oil is thinning out and causing the lower pressures?

If so, maybe keeping the temps lower might be all that's needed to maintain the pressure needed for high performance?

I read about lots of people reporting much lower temps after installing oil coolers, especially under racing conditions, where temps stabilized at around 210-230.

Do you think keeping the temps low will keep the oil pressure up high enough for racing?

Yes and no. Higher oil temps always drop oil pressure. The problem is that the OEM oil pump isn't large enough to supply the required oil pressures for substantially higher than OEM hp under normal driving conditions.

So while an oil cooler will help lower oil temps and help keep oil pressure higher you'll find that most of those with oil coolers are getting only about 10 psi more oil pressure so it does help but let's get real here. Those guys tracking their cars with oil coolers and that have good data are either NA or may have 280 hp with a supercharger. So 50-60 psi is probably going to do the trick but we need a solution to run 400, 500, and 600 hp.

If I can get 70-75 psi on the street consistently I would be happy for our customers running 400-500 hp. For 600+ I would like to see 75-80 psi. If I added an oil cooler to what I've done along with the heavy weight oil I think I'm right there for a reliable high power street car.

Now track cars running 400+ hp will not be able to keep oil temps in the 210-230 F range at all. 260 is going to be realistic for a track car with a cooler so we need that oil pressure in the 85 psi range on the street so we can handle that viscosity drop while racing (we see about 15 psi drop on our STi race engine).

Oh and by the way I'm running 15w50 Red Line as I knew I would still need the extra viscosity to increase pressure.

[D K]

Hey Phil

Sounds like your project got going again!

Had my 2nd track day with supercharger yesterday...

Do you reference only pressure at the galley plug? Or temp too?
I was thinking about plumbing an accusump to the galley but ive been told the return line from the oil cooler is a better idea.
Me, personally, would like to stay as close to the mains as possible.

David