Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[wparsons]

There are most definitely DOT legal 4 point harnesses, which have a failure point stitched in which allows you to slide down in the seat in the case of a rollover.

http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4

They're the only multi point harnesses any organizing body worth tracking with will allow without a cage as well. If they allow non DOT multi point harnesses without a cage, I would also see what other bad things they let slide.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Proper harness bar or not, it depends on who installs the harnesses, and where they anchor to the floor. I've seen harness bars where they anchor back in the rear seat and are still dangerous. You will also need a seat brace to prevent the seat back from causing issues.

As mike said, unless you are ready to cage it up stick with stock interior.

That's how I've always been taught and it makes sense.

CG lock is it IMO.

Also never run harnesses without at least a 4 point cage.

5-point harnesses will require you to cut the seat in the front as well to install them properly.


-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

So can you describe in detail or better yet show me a diagram or example of a harness mount that is acceptable for a non-caged vehicle?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Proper harness bar or not, it depends on who installs the harnesses, and where they anchor to the floor. I've seen harness bars where they anchor back in the rear seat and are still dangerous. You will also need a seat brace to prevent the seat back from causing issues.

As mike said, unless you are ready to cage it up stick with stock interior.

That's how I've always been taught and it makes sense.

CG lock is it IMO.

Also never run harnesses without at least a 4 point cage.

5-point harnesses will require you to cut the seat in the front as well to install them properly.


-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

I'm kind of going out on a limb with information I've gained through several discussions with people as I researched my own safety system, so with various opinions on the subject I am sure some people will disagree with me:
A roll bar which is completely aft of you and having four points of attachment to the car will offer you protection against the roof collapsing into where your head is with race seats and harnesses. This won't be as good as a six+ point cage with bars along the 'A' pillar (halo, main hoop or left/right type) but still enough to make race seats and harnesses OK in a rollover. This is assuming proper installation, etc. of the roll protection. Realistically a properly installed roll bar will offer you much better protection from roof collapse than a eight cusco cage bolted to plain sheet metal without proper backing plates etc. See this for an example: http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...l-ar80908.html (best link I could find)

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by wparsons

There are most definitely DOT legal 4 point harnesses, which have a failure point stitched in which allows you to slide down in the seat in the case of a rollover.

http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4

They're the only multi point harnesses any organizing body worth tracking with will allow without a cage as well. If they allow non DOT multi point harnesses without a cage, I would also see what other bad things they let slide.

I would not allow anyone to use a 4 point harness at any of my events.

5 point minimum.

-mike

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by solidONE

So can you describe in detail or better yet show me a diagram or example of a harness mount that is acceptable for a non-caged vehicle?

I wouldn't suggest a non-caged car use harnesses. We also do not install cages or harnesses due to liability reasons, so I've never had to get into the specifics, luckily we have so many contacts in the racing community that we let them take care of those items for us.

-mike

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I'm kind of going out on a limb with information I've gained through several discussions with people as I researched my own safety system, so with various opinions on the subject I am sure some people will disagree with me:
A roll bar which is completely aft of you and having four points of attachment to the car will offer you protection against the roof collapsing into where your head is with race seats and harnesses. This won't be as good as a six+ point cage with bars along the 'A' pillar (halo, main hoop or left/right type) but still enough to make race seats and harnesses OK in a rollover. This is assuming proper installation, etc. of the roll protection. Realistically a properly installed roll bar will offer you much better protection from roof collapse than a eight cusco cage bolted to plain sheet metal without proper backing plates etc. See this for an example: http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...l-ar80908.html (best link I could find)

+1

-mike

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

I would not allow anyone to use a 4 point harness at any of my events.

5 point minimum.

-mike

Way to totally miss the point...

5 or 6 point NEED a cage, my point was that if anyone allows you on a track with a 5 or 6 point (or even a 4 point without the break away stitching) without a proper (ie teched and passed, not just there for show) cage then you probably don't want to be on the track with them.

The flip side is typically true too, that if you have a cage then you NEED 5 or 6 point harnesses.

What would you say if someone showed up with DOT legal 4 point belts in a car without a cage? It's safer than stock 3 points, and road legal. What about just the stock 3 points since you say 5 point minimum?

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Way to totally miss the point...

5 or 6 point NEED a cage, my point was that if anyone allows you on a track with a 5 or 6 point (or even a 4 point without the break away stitching) without a proper (ie teched and passed, not just there for show) cage then you probably don't want to be on the track with them.

The flip side is typically true too, that if you have a cage then you NEED 5 or 6 point harnesses.

What would you say if someone showed up with DOT legal 4 point belts in a car without a cage? It's safer than stock 3 points, and road legal. What about just the stock 3 points since you say 5 point minimum?

Sorry I don't have the NASA ccr in front of me but we follow that at a minimum.

I would still not allow a 4 point harness no matter the dot legal or not.

As for cages they it's follow the NASA ccr so the show cages wouldn't be legal either.

As Mike said if you have harnesses you should have a cage, just my feelings on it from years of tracking, officiating, and being in and around race cars and racers.

Your question on 3 point I would only allow it in a "stock" interiored car. As I said we follow the NASA ccr at a minimum.

Mike

[endless_pain]

My apologies if it has been asked before, but I had to stop reading after 28 pages.
Do you recommend bracing? (Strut, rear, under)
If so, which ones?
If you recommend switching bushings to urethane or any other, which ones will go with?

I'm not talking brands as much as which ones specifically since there are so many out there including the seat ones (GTSPEC Front Seat Rail Support) which look silly to me.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Sorry I don't have the NASA ccr in front of me but we follow that at a minimum.

I would still not allow a 4 point harness no matter the dot legal or not.

As for cages they it's follow the NASA ccr so the show cages wouldn't be legal either.

As Mike said if you have harnesses you should have a cage, just my feelings on it from years of tracking, officiating, and being in and around race cars and racers.

Your question on 3 point I would only allow it in a "stock" interiored car. As I said we follow the NASA ccr at a minimum.

Mike

So if a car without a cage showed up with a proper DOT legal 4 point belt you would turn them away? Seems like a strange decision.

I understand not wanting 4 point belts with a cage, but not allowing a legal 4 point belt in a non caged car seems strange to me.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by wparsons

So if a car without a cage showed up with a proper DOT legal 4 point belt you would turn them away? Seems like a strange decision.

I understand not wanting 4 point belts with a cage, but not allowing a legal 4 point belt in a non caged car seems strange to me.

Agreed. A 4-point DOT-legal (single button release and ASM device on the towards-center side) harness with a properly-installed harness bar that is properly mounted in the car seems like it should be fine. It basically takes the functional place of the factory system without compromise.

Take for example the schroth quick-fit, rallye 3 & 4, rally cross, and auto-control II.

[kavanagh]

I'm not sure how long these harnesses have been out, but they are street legal, and FIA homologized. I understand and appreciate your experience @AZP Installs but would you consider these harnesses unsafe if combined with a harness bar such as this one from Cipher Auto in a car without a cage?

The harnesses have the anti submarine feature sewn into the inboard shoulder strap, which is why I am curious to know your opinion on these without a full cage. I agree that any 4, 5, or 6 point harness that does not allow for the body to flex in the event of a rollover is bad without a cage, but have you seen these particular ones before?

The harness bar bolts to the stock shoulder belt point and also the rear seat lap belt outboard bolts.


Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but my background in physics and mechanical engineering suggests this setup would be safe. What I lack, and look for in this forum, is practical on-track experience.

Feel free to tell me to shut up and get over it - stock interior until full-racecar if that has to be.

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by endless_pain

My apologies if it has been asked before, but I had to stop reading after 28 pages.
Do you recommend bracing? (Strut, rear, under)
If so, which ones?
If you recommend switching bushings to urethane or any other, which ones will go with?

I'm not talking brands as much as which ones specifically since there are so many out there including the seat ones (GTSPEC Front Seat Rail Support) which look silly to me.

The common response in this thread typically asks you what you are trying to accomplish, and what type of driving you plan to do.

Are you experiencing snap-oversteer? Do you want to? are you autocrossing, or HPDE, and also are you on a short/slow/technical track, or a fast/long/curvy one?

Most everyone here suggests driving the car stock, until you identify that your driving ability has surpassed some particular part of the car. Then by understanding what happens to you on track, they can make suggestions to improve the car.

[Tainen]

How long will my stockers last on the track? I've got 6k miles on the car now, tires look relatively un-worn. Three car control clinics and an autocross day on them.


First HPDE of my life tomorrow. Excited, nervous, and curious. Can I run my stockers all summer, or will they be junk after the first day? Planning on 3 or 4 HPDEs this summer. 4 x 25 minute sessions. Stock alignment.