Random Thoughts - Part Deux [NO POLITICS]

[Ashikabi]

I think we could look at it this way. We agree the Miata brakes on a truck would take longer to stop because of the increased momentum(mass) of the truck. If you put the truck brakes on the Miata, it would stop faster assuming the tires were not over powered. On his WRX, larger calipers(surface area and clamping power)+ better brake pads+ better than stock tires(18s doesn't matter)= truck brakes on a Miata. I'm in no way saying larger rotors(primary ingredient in BBK) on an otherwise stock car will stop faster as the tires will be over powered. But size of caliper, pad compound, tire compound, and tire width all add up to how fast you can stop. I think we are all saying the same thing but someone is missing something

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

I think we could look at it this way. We agree the Miata brakes on a truck would take longer to stop because of the increased momentum(mass) of the truck. If you put the truck brakes on the Miata, it would stop faster assuming the tires were not over powered. On his WRX, larger calipers(surface area and clamping power)+ better brake pads+ better than stock tires(18s doesn't matter)= truck brakes on a Miata. I'm in no way saying larger rotors(primary ingredient in BBK) on an otherwise stock car will stop faster as the tires will be over powered. But size of caliper, pad compound, tire compound, and tire width all add up to how fast you can stop. I think we are all saying the same thing but someone is missing something

I am say with the same tires and under normal driving conditions the OEM brakes work just as well as a BBK.


I am not for one second saying that there is no value to a BBK under different driving conditions. My debate is whether in his accident the BBK was a deciding factor on if he could stop in time or not. I maintain it wasn't and the same car, with the same tires, under the same conditions would have stopped in the same place.


That is why trucks are not designed with Miata brakes.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

How are the pads "better" if the stock ones have not surpassed their abilities?


You guys think that the OEM system just barely stops the car? There is a huge safety factor engineered in there.

No I believe it stops the car within a certain window of distance in a variety of circumstances. To make it stop "instantaneously"would be financially unfeasable. Just like the car is "fast enough"to keep up in traffic, it can still be faster

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am say with the same tires and under normal driving conditions the OEM brakes work just as well as a BBK.


I am not for one second saying that there is no value to a BBK under different driving conditions. My debate is whether in his accident the BBK was a deciding factor on if he could stop in time or not. I maintain it wasn't and the same car, with the same tires, under the same conditions would have stopped in the same place.


That is why trucks are not designed with Miata brakes.

What about the pad compound

Ignore this, already included in bbk

[jawn]

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...st-results.pdf

Note the differences between "Best" distances and "Average" distances. A big brake kit significantly improves resistance to fade (thus yielding a more consistent stopping distance, or less of a difference between best and average). With brakes at normal operating temperatures, 70-0MPH isn't all that different between the different brake setups.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by jawn

Your master cylinder is only so large. You do have better brake feel with a lot of big brake kits, but assuming the same tires, your 60-0 brake distances aren't significantly affected.

See, Jawn gets it. The calipers, pads and rotors are only a few small parts of the overall system. The rest can not be ignored just because you throw some bigger parts on there.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

No I believe it stops the car within a certain window of distance in a variety of circumstances. To make it stop "instantaneously"would be financially unfeasable. Just like the car is "fast enough"to keep up in traffic, it can still be faster

LOL not to mention that stopping it "instantaneously" would get really messy with the pulped bodies inside!

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by jawn

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...st-results.pdf

Note the differences between "Best" distances and "Average" distances. A big brake kit significantly improves resistance to fade (thus yielding a more consistent stopping distance, or less of a difference between best and average). With brakes at normal operating temperatures, 70-0MPH isn't all that different between the different brake setups.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

See, Jawn gets it. The calipers, pads and rotors are only a few small parts of the overall system. The rest can not be ignored just because you throw some bigger parts on there.

Right the effect is somewhat limited to the footprint of the tires. However don't forget that a larger diameter rotor has more leverage and slowing a large rotational mass matters too. It's not just for cooling...

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[p1l0t]

One thing you will notice is at how much you loose first before you get the ABS or they lock up. In a car with bigger brakes it's almost instant but some cars it can quite sometime (while you're still moving forward) before you get to the point the ABS computer has to start letting up for you.

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[p1l0t]

Also taller tires have a LONGER footprint and wider tires have a WIDER footprint so BOTH effect the size of the footprint on the ground so let's get that right to begin with.

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[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

Right the effect is somewhat limited to the footprint of the tires. However don't forget that a larger diameter rotor has more leverage and slowing a large rotational mass matters too. It's not just for cooling...

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Larger pads and rotors generally are just for cooling though.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

One thing you will notice is at how much you loose first before you get the ABS or they lock up. In a car with bigger brakes it's almost instant but some cars it can quite sometime (while you're still moving forward) before you get to the point the ABS computer has to start letting up for you.

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That does not mean it is stopping you faster or better.


Maybe somebody better at phrasing can get across what I am trying to say:


The truth about big brake kits for the street






For street use, some cars could stop shorter from adding a big brake kit but many will actually lose braking performance! The engineers who designed your car made the brake system according to the day-day changing weight and balance of the car (fuel load, passengers and cargo, etc), suspension settings, and the stock tires. While you could stop shorter if all four tires used all available traction, the rear tires sacrifice a little braking performance to keep from locking up and sending the car into a skid. This also accounts for differences in car weight and balance from different fuel and cargo loads, a shifting center of gravity, front/rear brake bias, and changes in tire/brake setups. With all mk4 and newer VW, the electronic brake distribution in the ABS supposedly applies the rear brakes first under light braking to reduce dive. Front brakes are bigger than the rears because under heavier braking, the car's weight shifts forward onto the front tires, giving them more traction.

Changing any brake/tire/suspension component from stock will change how the brakes behave. For example, a big brake kit on the front will increase braking at the front tire but this bias and weight shift doesn't let you take advantage of unrealized grip at the rear tires. This could result in longer stopping distances. In some cases, a medium big brake kit will give better braking than the large big brake kit just due to balance! All good brake kits increase braking torque without negatively effecting the bias. Good brake kits should keep about stock pedal travel and be matched to the brake master cylinder. Upsetting the balance of the car also changes braking behavior during turns too. Combined with how well the engineers designed the stock braking system and considering economic considerations with a mass produced car, you might gain performance or you might lose performance with a kit. A sports car might be already tuned from the factory for optimum braking performance. A softly tuned car might have considerable room for improvement over the factory setup.

This doesn't mean that braking feel is unchanged because like brake pads, changing the brake setup changes pedal feel, modulation, travel, and lowers rotor/caliper/pad/hub temperatures. Unfortunately, brake feel does not equal shorter braking distance - the weight shift, brake bias, etc., are effected by changing the brake setup.

Does this mean that big brake kits are a scam? Absolutely not! Different model cars have different limiting factors in braking. Doing nothing other than adding a big brake kit might shorten braking distances if the brakes were the limiting factor. Stickier tires, suspension changes, adjustments in the weight and balance of the car, all change the behavior of the braking setup. Some cars have smaller rotors with undersized thermal capacity. As a car ages or as you replace worn out parts, changing the setup, you might be able to take advantage of a big brake kit. A big brake kit is actually needed on many cars if they're taken to the track! A big brake kit has greater rotor and pad mass to absorb the additional heat, pad compounds that can handle high heat, etc. Stock Volkswagen and Audi brakes are fine for street/autocross, but can heat up pretty quickly when really pushed. Again, this article is written with a focus on street use but I've seen TDI perform very well at the track on stock rotors! Driver braking technique is also at play here. So would your car benefit from a big brake kit? It changes by car model, individual car setup, and your intended use, so the correct answer is "it depends".


http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/br...brake-upgrade/

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

Also taller tires have a LONGER footprint and wider tires have a WIDER footprint so BOTH effect the size of the footprint on the ground so let's get that right to begin with.

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But having 18 inch wheels does not mean you have "taller" tires. Just a bigger hole in the middle.
If you want to "get it right" then do so.

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That does not mean it is stopping you faster or better.


Maybe somebody better at phrasing can get across what I am trying to say:


The truth about big brake kits for the street






For street use, some cars could stop shorter from adding a big brake kit but many will actually lose braking performance! The engineers who designed your car made the brake system according to the day-day changing weight and balance of the car (fuel load, passengers and cargo, etc), suspension settings, and the stock tires. While you could stop shorter if all four tires used all available traction, the rear tires sacrifice a little braking performance to keep from locking up and sending the car into a skid. This also accounts for differences in car weight and balance from different fuel and cargo loads, a shifting center of gravity, front/rear brake bias, and changes in tire/brake setups. With all mk4 and newer VW, the electronic brake distribution in the ABS supposedly applies the rear brakes first under light braking to reduce dive. Front brakes are bigger than the rears because under heavier braking, the car's weight shifts forward onto the front tires, giving them more traction.

Changing any brake/tire/suspension component from stock will change how the brakes behave. For example, a big brake kit on the front will increase braking at the front tire but this bias and weight shift doesn't let you take advantage of unrealized grip at the rear tires. This could result in longer stopping distances. In some cases, a medium big brake kit will give better braking than the large big brake kit just due to balance! All good brake kits increase braking torque without negatively effecting the bias. Good brake kits should keep about stock pedal travel and be matched to the brake master cylinder. Upsetting the balance of the car also changes braking behavior during turns too. Combined with how well the engineers designed the stock braking system and considering economic considerations with a mass produced car, you might gain performance or you might lose performance with a kit. A sports car might be already tuned from the factory for optimum braking performance. A softly tuned car might have considerable room for improvement over the factory setup.

This doesn't mean that braking feel is unchanged because like brake pads, changing the brake setup changes pedal feel, modulation, travel, and lowers rotor/caliper/pad/hub temperatures. Unfortunately, brake feel does not equal shorter braking distance - the weight shift, brake bias, etc., are effected by changing the brake setup.

Does this mean that big brake kits are a scam? Absolutely not! Different model cars have different limiting factors in braking. Doing nothing other than adding a big brake kit might shorten braking distances if the brakes were the limiting factor. Stickier tires, suspension changes, adjustments in the weight and balance of the car, all change the behavior of the braking setup. Some cars have smaller rotors with undersized thermal capacity. As a car ages or as you replace worn out parts, changing the setup, you might be able to take advantage of a big brake kit. A big brake kit is actually needed on many cars if they're taken to the track! A big brake kit has greater rotor and pad mass to absorb the additional heat, pad compounds that can handle high heat, etc. Stock Volkswagen and Audi brakes are fine for street/autocross, but can heat up pretty quickly when really pushed. Again, this article is written with a focus on street use but I've seen TDI perform very well at the track on stock rotors! Driver braking technique is also at play here. So would your car benefit from a big brake kit? It changes by car model, individual car setup, and your intended use, so the correct answer is "it depends".


http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/br...brake-upgrade/

Lol except I had Brembos front AND rear on bigger tires (both length AND height) all around. I garuntee if I still had it and brake checked you in a stock BRZ you would eat shit even if you reacted at the same time. Even though 03 WRX was almost 3k lbs.

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