Manual vs Automatic (Help!)

[Lantanafrs2]

I tend to buy what I like regardless of others opinions. I only bought the frs because its beautiful, has toyota reliability(?) and is quicker and sportier than what I was driving before. I chose the manual to make better use of the hamsters under the hood. If those hamsters were a little stronger I would have chosen the auto. Right now my car is quicker and better looking than a miata. At least the valet at bears and queers thought so. Hehehe

[HaXx]

im just checking in to see if this thread has become a meme yet

i refrained from replying thus far

[Ernest72]

If it’s mostly DD and spirited runs, get the AT. If you are gonna track/autox more, than get an MT. But either is fine. It’s literally just a preference.

My AT is a DD and no track. So I am only really engaged in driving it 25% of the time. The other 75% is getting from A to B or Uber for my kids.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

If it’s mostly DD and spirited runs, get the AT. If you are gonna track/autox more, than get an MT. But either is fine. It’s literally just a preference.

My AT is a DD and no track. So I am only really engaged in driving it 25% of the time. The other 75% is getting from A to B or Uber for my kids.

The AT does very well on track. I have 30+ track days on mine. The gearing is long but it holds it's own.

[ermax]

There is way more to a manual than simply pushing the clutch and moving the lever. I mean that is the bare minimum but there is more to it if you want to get into it more. Heal toe downshifts and properly matched downshifts add a lot of fun to the task. Sure an auto can downshift while you are braking with the push of a button but that isn’t as challenging or rewarding which is where the fun part comes in. If you are the type that holds the clutch in while slowing down then your really not doing the things that make it fun. I can totally see how someone like that wouldn’t understand the obsession with manuals. There is also double clutching if you want something else to learn. It’s very rewarding when you do a downshift and feel how effortlessly the shifter moves without loading up the syncros. Even into 1st gear at 40mph.

When people say a manual is more engaging it’s these sorts of things they are referring to. Your average driver who drove their dads manual civic one day and think they are experts on manuals have no clue.

[NMmatt]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Here's my secret. I listen to, feel the machine do its thing. As long as it's doing what it's supposed to do, I'm happy. The rest is just having fun with a polarizing subject.

Good lord, now I can’t tell if you are doing it on purpose or if you put the whammy on yourself! Tcoat has left the building...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by NMmatt

Good lord, now I can’t tell if you are doing it on purpose or if you put the whammy on yourself! Tcoat has left the building...

Oh, he's fine. Probably scheming his revenge.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by ermax

There is way more to a manual than simply pushing the clutch and moving the lever. I mean that is the bare minimum but there is more to it if you want to get into it more. Heal toe downshifts and properly matched downshifts add a lot of fun to the task. Sure an auto can downshift while you are braking with the push of a button but that isn’t as challenging or rewarding which is where the fun part comes in. If you are the type that holds the clutch in while slowing down then your really not doing the things that make it fun. I can totally see how someone like that wouldn’t understand the obsession with manuals. There is also double clutching if you want something else to learn. It’s very rewarding when you do a downshift and feel how effortlessly the shifter moves without loading up the syncros. Even into 1st gear at 40mph.

When people say a manual is more engaging it’s these sorts of things they are referring to. Your average driver who drove their dads manual civic one day and think they are experts on manuals have no clue.

This is well written and I agree with you. I don't think anyone is arguing that a manual is more engaging or that it takes a long time to learn how to drive one properly.

They both have good points and bad points. Some manual lovers refuse to believe the the auto can be fun. It is, it's different but it still is. In a manual at track or autoX you're trying to get around a track shifting as little as possible and even 0-60. It takes more time in a manual and eats into your times. The auto is quicker but the gearing sucks. Pick your poison.

The FR-S/BRZ/86 auto is more technologically advanced IMO. It is fun in it's own way. It's not as engaging but allows you to do things quicker like downshifting a split second before a braking zone. It kind of mimics that feeling of a sequential for your average driver (No I have not driven a sequential) Just trying to describe how an auto can differ and improve the driving experience. Again, not saying it's better or worse just different.


It's 4:30am hope this is coherent.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by ermax

There is way more to a manual than simply pushing the clutch and moving the lever. I mean that is the bare minimum but there is more to it if you want to get into it more. Heal toe downshifts and properly matched downshifts add a lot of fun to the task. Sure an auto can downshift while you are braking with the push of a button but that isn’t as challenging or rewarding which is where the fun part comes in. If you are the type that holds the clutch in while slowing down then your really not doing the things that make it fun. I can totally see how someone like that wouldn’t understand the obsession with manuals. There is also double clutching if you want something else to learn. It’s very rewarding when you do a downshift and feel how effortlessly the shifter moves without loading up the syncros. Even into 1st gear at 40mph.

When people say a manual is more engaging it’s these sorts of things they are referring to. Your average driver who drove their dads manual civic one day and think they are experts on manuals have no clue.

This is one of the better arguments thus far.

But

some may say challenging and rewarding others might say tedious and annoying.

As was mentioned before someone whos driven an MT for 10+ years all of these things might be so second nature its like breathing, it provides no challenge or reward at that point.

However, To a beginner or maybe intermediate it is definitely a challenge and might feel rewarding to them once they accomplish it.

Most of those things you argued seems most prevalent on the track or AutoX where I think the MT has a good argument for being better in some ways. if this is a dedicated track car by all means MT it is.

but, 90% of these cars never step foot (tires) on a track or autox they are just DDs and maybe back road canyon carvers on occasion.

Also a lot of people find it challenging and rewarding finding the perfect "driver line", braking at the last most optimal moment, knowing exactly when to start accelerating out of a turn, pushing the limits on how fast you can take a turn, or a million other things involved in driving that have nothing to do with a transmission, and possibly needing to think about the transmission (MT) might even take away from the experience of these other things.

Too each their own. Its all personal preference. Which one is better in terms of fun and enjoyment is 100% subjective.

Which one performs better is more objective but entirely situationally based and is a very close comparison depending on those situations.

To state something like "this car demand or needs an MT and AT is trash and should never be on this platform" is foolish. (not saying you said this but others have)

[bcj]

I don't recall if the MX-5 ever had flappy paddles.
The wins were the first cheap sporty car to get that feature that I'm aware of under 30K.

yay team.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

As was mentioned before someone whos driven an MT for 10+ years all of these things might be so second nature its like breathing, it provides no challenge or reward at that point.

I disagree. Even though manual shifting is automatic, it's still a rewarding experience. Does a chef find no pleasure in making the perfect pasta dish for the millionth time? Even once you've perfected something that it becomes automatic, you can still find it rewarding, even if it is no longer a real challenge. For me, I enjoy the mechanical connection with the car, the physical sensation of my feet and hands as they operate in concert to execute a shift. There are only 3 inputs for a car - steering wheel, pedals and shifter. An automatic takes a big chunk of that (I'll cede that manual shifting of an automatic might be somewhat comparable, but I just can't imagine myself enjoying pushing/pulling the shifter or pressing the flappy pedals as much as operating a clutch and an H shifter).

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Also a lot of people find it challenging and rewarding finding the perfect "driver line", braking at the last most optimal moment, knowing exactly when to start accelerating out of a turn, pushing the limits on how fast you can take a turn, or a million other things involved in driving that have nothing to do with a transmission, and possibly needing to think about the transmission (MT) might even take away from the experience of these other things.

That's more applicable on the track. For street driving, it's more about enjoying the connection with the car and the road (to me, at least). A manual transmission enhances this connection (again, for me). I can see people who are more interested in the driving itself, and less in how said driving is achieved. These people perhaps would care less about the car, so long as it allows them their driving experience.

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Too each their own. Its all personal preference. Which one is better in terms of fun and enjoyment is 100% subjective.

That's exactly why the heated discussion - nobody would be so opinionated on an objective question

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

I disagree. Even though manual shifting is automatic, it's still a rewarding experience. Does a chef find no pleasure in making the perfect pasta dish for the millionth time? Even once you've perfected something that it becomes automatic, you can still find it rewarding, even if it is no longer a real challenge. For me, I enjoy the mechanical connection with the car, the physical sensation of my feet and hands as they operate in concert to execute a shift. There are only 3 inputs for a car - steering wheel, pedals and shifter. An automatic takes a big chunk of that (I'll cede that manual shifting of an automatic might be somewhat comparable, but I just can't imagine myself enjoying pushing/pulling the shifter or pressing the flappy pedals as much as operating a clutch and an H shifter).



That's more applicable on the track. For street driving, it's more about enjoying the connection with the car and the road (to me, at least). A manual transmission enhances this connection (again, for me). I can see people who are more interested in the driving itself, and less in how said driving is achieved. These people perhaps would care less about the car, so long as it allows them their driving experience.



That's exactly why the heated discussion - nobody would be so opinionated on an objective question

I think the first dozen or so times a chef will be excited and feel accomplished about the process of making a perfect pasta (process of achieving result), after that the enjoyment comes from the response and enjoyable experience of the happy customer (end result)

MT is the process of achieving, AT has same end result.

Cant speak to what you specifically do or don't enjoy, but generally speaking there are plenty of things to enjoy about spirited driving and experiencing what the car has to offer that have nothing to do with what the clutch might do. Especially on this platform being so handling oriented.

The discussion gets "heated" when people try to turn subjective opinion into objective fact, or don't entirely understand the objective facts and discredit things the AT can do (like having full control of shifting just with no clutch)(or that 90% of the difference in 0-60 times is from launching and 5-60 roll is almost identical).

Not saying this is you either, just overall discussion from some people.

[spcmafia]

How to trigger car communities 101: "Auto or Manual, which one is better?"

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

The discussion gets "heated" when people try to turn subjective opinion into objective fact, or don't entirely understand the objective facts and discredit things the AT can do (like having full control of shifting just with no clutch)(or that 90% of the difference in 0-60 times is from launching and 5-60 roll is almost identical).

Exactly. It's the "my way or not on my highway" attitudes that get everyone's feathers in a bunch. I completely understand why some people prefer MT vs AT, but they all boil down to personal preference. My personal preference is "it doesn't matter to me, I'll wring the best out of either one I can".

AT vs MT should just be added to the same list as religion and politics. No one side will ever convince the other that they are right, nor change their minds.

Originally Posted by spcmafia

How to trigger car communities 101: "Auto or Manual, which one is better?"

The answer is "it depends".