LS3 BRZ
 

I'm getting sick and tired of being disappointed by the FA20. If I want an LS3 in my BRZ and I don't mind shipping it anywhere in the country and I don't particularly care about the cost, where should I send it? I just want it done right and in a timely fashion. I don't have the time, space or patience to do the swap myself.

Before you tell me to just buy a Corvette or a Camaro know that I already have an 18' ZL1 and a supercharged S2000. While I love both of those cars I'm still drawn to the BRZ. I just fit in the car perfectly. S2K is too small and the Camaro is too big! Have a real love hate relationship with the BRZ but the only thing I really hate is the unreliable drivetrain.

I think pure automotive would be the place to send it. They’ve put together a bunch of parts needed and can probably do a clean swap.



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Did you check the other LS swap threads here regarding reliability?

I would just rebuild the engine and have installed a Greddy or JRSC kit. You could talk to CSG since you are in CA.

Did you also check Synergy swap?
http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/01/...ynergy-brz-v8/

:iono: what? Ls motors and drivetrains are incredibly reliable and easy to maintain. A stock or mildly modified lsx would make as much as a built fa20 with a turbo anyways and would be much more reliable.

I know and agree that LS is a great engine (for the price). But I guess I missed. Do you know any LS swap being tracked like this?
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4RooDs_Gmc"]this[/ame]

I wish I could do that Synergy swap.

Synergy is great for a track only car. I'm looking for more of a street/canyon/autocross setup with maybe the occasional track day.

Wutsaiu has an LS and tracks his 86 hard, so check his threads to see if you can pickup any tips from him. He did the swap himself

Why is a synergy v8 even being brought up.... you could do multiple ls swaps for the cost of that motor, seriously...wtf.

Because OP mentioned about reliability and daily drive without a budget constraint. I am apparently not sharing your LS excitement and recommending against doing that swap. LS is a good engine but I haven't seen an LS swap that is as reliable as a Corvette yet, other than a couple donuts, rumbles, and rubber burns. I enjoy this swap forum as much as you and respect the builders for their skills and efforts. But the OP is not doing this himself to enjoy the challenge. Only thing left is paying big bucks to a powerful but finicky car. Please show that "incredibly" reliable LS swapped twin.

This is my honest opinion and my only intention is to help OP.

Suggesting a built turbo FA20 or a synergy v8 as a more reliable option than an ls3 is uneducated at best. Why not suggest a 2jz if you're not an ls fan?

@DustinS, @Sportsguy83, @Pure Automotive

Most of the issues I have seen personally are from people saving money with questionable transmissions or blocks initially. Go back and read about the BRZ06, even though weapons grade performance had a rough run reputation wise for a while that initial car was a great build.

mrg666, have you driven a synergy or a sequential trans on the street? Doesn’t seem real practical. It’s a race engine pretty sure that’s all it’s good for. My experience is that anything is more reliable than a “built fa20”. I would be willing to bet money that a stock FA20 will be more reliable on 10 psi than any built FA20 don’t care who built the motor.

My suggestion was mainly building FA20. Synergy is my dream and it will be my beautiful problem. You guys are skipping my main recommendation to make an argument. I will not be playing this who said what game. All engine swaps I have seen are not acceptable so far.

Grabthewheel, good luck and have fun!

I don’t know how reliable the engine is. For $40k it should be built and reliable, but then again, it uses motorbike heads and revs fairly high. Superbike motors aren’t really known for their longevity. Does it need valve adjusting every 15k?

I’m loving mine. If I were you I send the car to Pure Automotive, to do the swap and more importantly, tune it and get it dialed in...tuning was the hard part for me.

I built mine with all new parts. Used parts is always a gamble...pays off for some and not so much with others. I haven’t had any reliability issues that I would attribute to it being becuase it’s an “LS Swap” but it’s gonna be pretty hard to get a swapped car to have reliability on par with a factory designed stock condition car. I would compare the reliability of my swapped car to a heavily modded something else though...same issues arise.

I’ve got about 2k miles on mine so far and it’s a blast. Mostly aggressive backroads driving...been shaking it down and improving things trying to make sure it’s track ready before I actually start hitting the track. I think it’s ready now...Going to hit a drift event next Sunday.

I don't understand how can you say there are no "incredibly" reliable LS swapped twins. The LS engine and transmission are bulletproof basically. It will deliver what a built FA20 delivers built with a nice turbo, but NA and without the finicky annoyances found in the FA20 (read P001X CEL codes for example).

What exactly is not bulletproof about an LS swapped twin? Your argument about tracking, there are LS swapped 86s being tracked hard, in competition. Element tuning has one and there's a shop in Georgia that has another. This are just two examples of many. But in any case, 99% of people who own these cars are not hardcore competition seeking track dedicated individuals, so the argument that "there are no LS swapped 86s tracked like the video of the synergy car" really does not amount to much, as most of these cars will not see track and most that do, will only be to have fun on an HPDE event, not a full blown competition where the car is driven 10/10 to its limits (aside from the fact that there ARE LS swapped 86s driven hard at the track).

That synergy set up is pretty awesome. If I would have known about it prior to starting my build, I might have gone that way, it’s a pretty complete package...but I ended up with a BRZ becuase I wanted to do an LS swap in the first place lol.

Yeah....... for someone claiming to have a '18 ZL1 and a supercharged S2K
Why the fuk would you even bother with an engine swap on a 86.

To me this seems like a troll kid. Either a diehard fanboy or just a kid with big dreams.

I'm all 3! A troll, an 86 fanboy and a kid with big dreams. Truth is I have more fun in an 86 with 400 to 500 to the crank and an OS giken LSD than the other two cars when it actually works! Problem is it doesn't seem to work for very long...

Here's some fun at Buttonwillow in the ZL1
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WLdwLBaTc[/ame]

Yeah... that's a fun track. And I clearly see it's driver fault not the car.
Also who are you think your fooling with a beginner run group vid of a track day?
LoL
You need more seat time not power. I clearly see your the type of guy that blames the car not the driver. Work on driver skill. That's all I can say.

Thanks..... for the tip. Please post a video of you running at Buttonwillow so you can teach me! Or better yet come to AutoX with the Porsche or Corvette club at Santa Maria airport so you can school me there! I'll be the first to admit I have lots to learn.

Also, fyi this was the ADVANCED run group with speed district, no point by's required. Everyone aside from the guy in the AMG was at least a half way decent driver as we were all running consistent sub 2 min laps on street tires. Please post your fast laps! I was a few seconds off what the ZL1 is capable of but was pretty happy for my 4th track day in the car.

Ah, your local? That's cool. Funny story with the Porsche club, well just this club it's always booked or they are picky when it comes to fill the spaces. Either way I been wanting to go all year since they been allowed to do autoX at the airport. But life gets in the way, blah blah blah. You know.

As for teaching, I can try. I have been ask to coach back in the day with the NorCal UFO club at their driving clinic, and with Speed Ventures way back when but I don't consider myself anyway near good enough to teach more than the basics.

As for vids and lap times sorry don't have any worth posting. Unless you want to see me hit a good line then hit traffic and slow down. But you know how that is when your trying to do a fast lap and that dude in front is trying something new and just slows you down.


And oh, sorry didn't realize it was an 'advance' run group. I mean most of the high end run groups I ever experienced where just doing parade laps. But I get it. Last thing I want is rock chips from going off track on my $80k+ car.

I don't mean to come out like a jerk, but when you have a bas ass car like a ZL1 then go complaint about the 86 and not being fast enough with out a V8 swap, it kind of puts a hella of lot of doubts. You know? One might even tell you to dump all your money in the better car, that is your ZL1 and forget about a silly swap.

But that's just my crazy thinking.

I don't disagree with this.

The OP has a very good question, seems like many companies have experience with this particular swap however I see much more emphasis on selling parts rather than turnkey projects. My FRS is sitting in the garage with an empty engine bay for the second time, most recently $11,000 of built motor got flushed when a rocker arm snapped in two and the entire valve train imploded which led to a forged rod protruding out the top of the block. I'm not spending another dime on FA20 again but I've got about $12K in other track specific upgrades installed and not interested in a part out other than the drive train and JRSC. (was running 90mm pully at the end)


Being able to afford better cars in no way means you can't still have a sweet spot for the twin. Mine is on rolling dollies, patiently waiting till I'm ready to make the swap. I absolutely will seek out a shop that has this experience, plan to use a crate LS3 /T56 and Motec ECU from Pure.


However first up, wife wants a new car and she wants to trade the TTS in for a TTRS as soon as the 19's are available so my project will have to wait. Unfortunately it's not monopoly money involved here. Mean time I will take that platform and see what's possible and make the occasional track foray. Before you snicker it will be at 570hp with APR E85 tune and bolt-ons, MSS springs and camber plates, AP Racing BBK 18x9.5 wheels with 285 R compounds on all 4 corners. What's understeer????

I doubt the engine or trans will give you trouble but everything else will. You'll need to spend big money on brakes, wheels, tires, suspension, rear end, axles, COOLING, etc. You can't just shoe-horn 500hp into a 200hp car and drive away. I've seen more LS swapped Miatas on the tow truck coming off the track than actually driving on the track.


I have a Grand Sport, so I a shit ton of cooling designed for a supercharged 650 hp car and "only" 465 and my engine oil temps get to about 270.
Go look at the size of a C7 rear differential and axles. Then look at the FRS' diff.
Then go compare the size of the tires. I run 335 in the rear and 285 up front. Then compare the brakes.

500hp on 215's is going to be pointless. I had a C7 Z51 (245/285) before the C7 GS the difference between the cars is night and day on the track. 500hp on puny brakes isn't going to be much fun.

Go for it, but unless you're going to do serious cooling, brake, tire (widebody), and drivetrain modifications, I'm not sure it's worth your while.

edit: Also, big power and small wheelbase can be a very interesting experience, especially with narrow tires.
Also, the LS3 basically needs dry sump or at least an accusump if you want to track it. Not sure what that does for packaging.

KAB Customs in North Lauderdale. They did my swap (LS2/TR6060 and Pure Motec) and are finishing an LS3 FRS as we speak. Great individuals with fair pricing.

The differential has been proven to hold 800 whp and 700ish torque, so that's fine.

In my case, I already had suspension, brakes, 600 hp rated axles, bigger radiator, 275 tires, a vented hood, just upgraded to 1300 CFM dual fans. The car drives and performs great. Yes, I will not be hitting the track ever weekend, as I am first and foremost NOT interested on it, but I wouldn't for a second doubt about taking this car to the track and thrashing it. I've said this before, but 99% of owners do not track their cars, and the other 1% most of them do not race at the track competitively, they do it for fun on an HPDE event with no times or competition. The car would do fine on those type of events.

I'm not saying you're wrong, your corvette is definitely worlds above a better car from the groundup to take the abuse, but for people who cannot afford a 60+K sticker price on a car, swapping the car for less than half the cost of that could be a nice tradeoff. Everything has pros and cons.

[QUOTE=Deep Six;3144837]The OP has a very good question, seems like many companies have experience with this particular swap however I see much more emphasis on selling parts rather than turnkey projects. My FRS is sitting in the garage with an empty engine bay for the second time, most recently $11,000 of built motor got flushed when a rocker arm snapped in two and the entire valve train imploded which led to a forged rod protruding out the top of the block. I'm not spending another dime on FA20 again but I've got about $12K in other track specific upgrades installed and not interested in a part out other than the drive train and JRSC. (was running 90mm pulley at the end)


Being able to afford better cars in no way means you can't still have a sweet spot for the twin. Mine is on rolling dollies, patiently waiting till I'm ready to make the swap. I absolutely will seek out a shop that has this experience, plan to use a crate LS3 /T56 and Motec ECU from Pure.]

Deep Six, glad I'm not the only one!! Thought about ordering another FA20 and go with IAG this time but no fucking way!! I could have a stockpile of used FA20's for all the damn money wasted. These engines are disposable when driven hard with power and people need to realize this. If you want to drive it hard with boost have at least a couple extra engines and trans lying around. I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a "built fa20". Maybe just for street or the occasional 1/4 mile pass. But if you are serious about driving hard with double the horsepower start saving for your swap now.

This is not going to be a budget swap. No expense will be spared. Cooling, traction, brakes will all be addressed. I'm thinking of sending the car to Phil at Element tuning for his monster 86 swap or the guys at Pure automotive. Stock cars even ones built by GM for the track can have trouble handling the abuse. My ZL1 trans will overheat at the track after 25 min just about every time. Now I'm sure I wouldn't have this experience with a Grandsport or SS 1LE but I don't want either of those cars. I want a sub 3000 lbs BRZ with big NA power. Will it be as fast as a Grandsport maybe not but I'm not winning any big cardboard checks or trophies just in it for the fun and love of it.

I appreciate your suggestions and input! What are the biggest problems you've encountered with your swap?

I think the most important part of the swap is to educate yourself a whole lot before diving into it. Unless you have an open checkbook, then I would say ship it to Pure Automotive, they've done plenty of swaps and have nailed down both the hardware and the software.

I lost a lot of time and wasted some money because there was some stuff I needed to figure out as I went, I did not have everything readily available and some things you just learn as you go. I thought the slim fans and shroud everyone sells are enough, but in my particular case, when it's 99 degrees outside with AC on, the slim fans could not keep up, thus I needed to upgrade to 1300 cfm fans. That is just an example of "wasted money" because I didn't have the knowledge. If anyone asked me today, I'd say go with the bigger fans from the get-go. I also learned this 40ish% more powerful fans work with the stock wiring, the fuse just needs to be changed from 25A to 30A. I also went with a lover temperature thermostat, which has helped tremendously and the car runs a lot better with it, temps. stay in check.

I've learned that there is no bolt on and go and no plug and play package will be absolutely plug and play with zero issues, although some will have vey minor stuff to do custom (Motec), while others will involve a lot of custom wiring and some others advertised as plug and play are really a shithole garbage...

I bought some unnecesary fittings here and there, because I didn't know which ones worked at the end. I learned that choosing an ECU option is only half the battle, as finding a tuner for it might be more challenging. I learned that the 4.10 stock final drive is too much, and you are way better served with the 3.73 from the IS300.

Those are all just examples. Once the car is back together and all the little issues are sorted out, the car is a lot of fun. easy to drive, sounds sick, the torque is intoxicating. but the road to get there will have some frustrating spots for sure (again unless we're talking about an open checkbook, send the car to Pure and forget about anything else).

If you throw enough money at it, anything can be made fast and reliable. Remember the old saying? Fast, cheap, reliable. You can have any two of the three you want.

The only challenge you may face is cooling, but with enough vents and heat exchangers, you should be okay- so long as you don't try to make 700hp or something.

Good luck. Sounds like fun.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread! Car is being shipped to Pure possibly as soon as next week.

Curious for those who swapped have you found the need for an axle upgrade?

Should I go used or new LS3? Leaning towards new

Who has experience with the TR6060 vs Magnum XL? pros and cons of each I know the Magnum holds more torque but my power goals are modest just looking for 450-500 whp

I did have a 4.56 final drive in the car. Definitley going down from there to something like a 3.73

I'd like to have AC for now so that would mean no dry sump. Looking into aftermarket baffled oil pans. As well as having Motec pull timing during high lateral G's for an extended period of time. That is what the GM ecu does on the C7's so I figure Motec must have that feature.

Axle upgrade is recommended, the torque is able to eat the stock ones easily.

I have a TR-6060, like it a lot, have no complains on it. Got it used with 90k miles.

Definitely need to lower the final drive. I ran it initially with the 4.10 and it was neck snapping through the first gears and the were extremely short. Got a good deal on an IS300 3.73 and the car is a dream to drive now. Love it.

Off topic but...

Can i get your 4.56 final drive when you gonna get rid of it?..... lol #reserved

Smart move, sending it to Pure. Should save you alot off headaches. Buy a new motor if you can swing it to try eliminate unknown issues with a used motor.

I have a Ford 8.8 rear, which can handle a ton of power. I’m running a 3.55 gear, and think it feels great. With the 3.55, power is useable everywhere...even first gear on 285/30r18’s (24.7” tall tires) works well. I’d probably leave the rear alone and save that project for after the engine swap project is done though.

I’m running a magnum xl with a 2.66 gear set, with the 3.55 andthe 24.7” tires, it works really well...plus it fits perfectly.( with vorshlag engine mounts)

I have AC, more important to me than a dry sump but my car isn’t a race car, I’m not tracking every weekend.

As for additional functions,motec can do just about anything...pretty awesome piece of equipment, with all that you want to do, just make sure the M130, which is what Pure supplies with their kit, is enough hardware for you.

M130 has less channels than the M150, I’ve used up all of my channels and have maxed out the m130...an m150 would have better suited my needs. Example, a popular set up for motec users is to put traction control or even boost control on a dial switch to adjust up or down. After getting everything else functioning on my car equipped with an M130 I could not use a dial switch for traction control as I ran out of channels, mine could only support a 3 way switch for traction control. I have a low, medium and high setting. Which is nice but more adjustability would be nicer. I cant add a boost control dial either if I want to go turbo later...I’ll need a more capable ecu or maybe some piggy back unit.

If you have a big chunck of money to throw at the car it will be an awesome project.

All very valid points, specially coming from someone that already did the swap and has the equipment in question.

I wanted to note that we can buy an expansion module for the M130 and add additional outputs (for boost control for example) without stepping up to the M150. But I fully agree, if money is no object and there are future plans for boost, the M150 from the start would be the best choice.

I don't think I will ever boost this car. If anything some point down the road I would strip the interior and cage the car. Things like a flex fuel sensor and a knob for traction control as well as https://store.schnitzracing.com/mote...elerometer-5g/ would definitley be things I'd want. I am going to confirm with Brady on the M130 vs M150 but do you guys think it's something I should get?

I am going with a crate LS3 and Magnum XL with 2.66 ratio. I'm trying to track down a 3.73 final drive otherwise I will go 3.9. The OS Giken LSD was one of my favorite mods done to the car and I'm hoping I'll be equally pleased with how it will work with the LS3.

Other things I'm considering is a Radium surge tank setup. Please let me know if anything else comes to mind!

What are you using the available channels for on your M130? Thanks for your input!

Hey, as soon as it's out of the car and available I'll send you a message!

Running all the normal things, you’d expect, AC....And then a 3 stage traction control and 91/100 octane tunes....I added a separate module to handle reverse lock out, because at the time the firmware did not address reverse lockout....and had to eliminate the flex fuel channel to do the 3 stage traction control. There are different types of channels available for certain functions...it gets a bit more technical than I can understand/explain.