fwd vs rwd in the snow
 

just wanted to bring this up for debate as I had to drive my corolla to work today since my FRS was snowed in. I always thought that FWD was safer/better for the snow (at least that's what I hear also) but it sure didn't feel that way after driving my FRS in the last 3 snowstorms (with continental all-seasons).

I do feel FWD is better for getting out of trench or going uphill from a complete start, but RWD is better/easier to control if slipping happens during actual driving. Thoughts?

agreed.

I had a similar issue driving my dad's corolla this winter. I was glad the conditions weren't completely terrible because I felt very unsafe in his car. This is one of the worst winters I've had to drive in and the first one I've had to drive the FR-S. I'm amazed at how comfortable I've become in my car driving on snow and slush. His loose steering and poor feedback made the car feel like it wanted to go off in random directions, even without snow.

I'm not even going that deep regarding the steering response, suspension setup, tires, etc. Just purely fwd vs rwd (and we can assume everything else is even). Just not sure why everybody else feels fwd is so much safer when driving in the snow because I feel much more unsafe when my fwd breaks traction.

I think winter tires can improve things further. Hills can still be a challenge with RWD; however, it has an advantage going around corners as long as you are deliberate with your inputs. More often than not, FWD = under steer, so, it encourages you to slow down around corners to counteract the under steer. The biggest thing is not so much a RWD thing, but rather, an FR-S thing. It is the advantage of being incredibly communicative compared to other cars. You can tell what the car is doing at all times. I was on the highway about a month ago and the road was quite icy. The back end was slightly wagging and I slowed to a safer speed unlike other mostly FWD cars bombing up the road and only find out that they are in imminent danger when they try to turn or slow down.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/9ac4be73d...jo3_r1_250.gif
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^ lol

I also agree.

FWD has the benefit of more vehicle weight (engine, etc) over the front axle, so typically you'll get better grip and drive in the snow. Also this weight is over the wheels that are doing the steering, so you can sometimes use this creatively of you're stuck. If the front end breaks loose, you have to really drive the car to get it to rotate and go in the intended direction.

RWD has the benefit (for experienced drivers) of more predictability when things get loose, but overall grip on the driving wheels is typically less. Also having an LSD means both wheels will break loose simultaneously on the light end of the car...

The 86 has the inherent benefit of being very responsive and communicative, so you have better sensory input of what the car is doing, making it better for nearly any driving situation requiring skill.

And snow tires FTW.

I was thinking about the engine weight factor too. but what happens when there is 50/50 weight distribution... the one other concept i do understand is it is easier to pull something in the snow then push it.

From my experience, my heavy FWD GTI is much better in the snow than my FR-S. The 61/39 weight distribution helps a lot.

But the FR-S is more fun in the snow.

If I absolutely need to get somewhere in the snow, I'll take the GTI, but if I'm just looking to hoon around and have fun, I'll take the FR-S.

Best 2wd: rear-engine, rear-drive...

I would drive whichever car has snow tires. Snow tires are more important than the drive of the vehicle.

I have driven a Cobalt SS turbocharged in the snow and the BRZ. Both with OEM tires. Cobalt was a bit easier to drive for the most part, but due to no LSD, I had issues making it up my parent's driveway. The BRZ, with traction control off and LSD, no issues. And as others have said, when you start sliding with the BRZ/FR-S, the car becomes predictable and controllable as long as you stay calm.

Probably off topic: Came across some black ice this morning in the middle of a left turn at an intersection. Drifted it like a boss (first time ever).... unintentionally.

How about mid-engine rwd? :thumbup: the mr2 was a tank through the snow!!!

If talking fwd vs rwd, I'd have to say it all depends on where the engine is placed and if it's placed over the axels or not.

But generally speaking, fwd is way better and easier in the snow. This is going to be the first and last season driving my FRS through the winter because, well... it's not too great. Having no weight over the drive wheels simply means less bite or traction.

But front engine rwd certainly makes up for all the winter hardships with the amount of stupid fun you can have!

This.



The flaw in the original question is that you are comparing a Corolla, which sucks to drive to begin with, with a very well-balanced RWD car with an LSD and isn't a torque-rich car like a Corvette. At least compare it to a FWD car that doesn't suck, like the aforementioned GTI or a Mazda 3, and it won't be as bad.



Does that make sense? It's not fair to assume that the FWD vs. RWD in the snow debate is bogus when you are judging one of the most weaksauce FWD compacts on the market to one of the better handling FRs on the market.

From personal experience, RWD+Snow tires > FWD+All Seasons. Cannot comment on the other configurations.

I disagree. Best: AWD, rear-biased, with a rear and center LSD and snow tires. That having been said, based on what I've driven in the snow (and I've driven in the snow a lot), here's how I would rank factors by importance:

1) Tires. I'll take any car on snow tires over the most perfectly balanced AWD car on summer or all season tires any day. This is the single biggest factor, IMHO.
2) Clearance. High clearance is good, unless you are very, very sure that there will not be any drifts or deep snow (or ruts) in your drive.
3) Drivetrain. AWD > 2WD, and most FWD cars > most RWD cars (though this varies depending on weight distribution, differential, and power level). This isn't nearly as important as good tires or sufficient clearance though, IMHO.

he said best "2wd" configuration. you went off about AWD set ups. of course AWD will be better than any combo of FWD or RWD

Ahh, I misinterpreted his statement. I read it as the best configuration is 2WD, with a rear engine rear drive.

:bonk:

(This is proof that I haven't had enough caffeine today at work...)

It's valentine's. Too many things on a guy's mind today. I've been scattered brained all day.

Anyways, these last 2 winters have been hell on ice w/ Utah's roads. The tires really are the HUGE difference, regardless of configuration

Its the same thing, but reverse, or fronverse, or un-verse, universe?

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I'll go along with that ..... :)


humfrz

having driving RWD cars in the 70's, then only FWD cars until getting the BRZ, I have to go with the FWD in the snow. Pulling the car with the front wheels in the snow feels more secure than having the BRZ fish tail every moment.

Thanks for saving me some key strokes!

RWD=Real Winter Driving

They both have their advantages and disadvantages assuming there isn't a tire difference as tires are more important than the drivetrain in this regard. FWD the benefits are primarily down to it being easier to getting going from a stop and its less likely to do something scary. It suffers on slippery hills and its less stable on the move due to the air pushing the rear not the front.

FR layout cars, they are the opposite. They're harder to get going from a stop and they constantly force you to take each turn with care. In return so long as they have momentum, hills are easy and they're way more stable on the move at speed than front drive cars.

Me? RWD over FWD. So long as I can keep a RWD car's momentum going I'm less likely to get stuck. I prefer to drive at a decent pace which FWD is no good here in this regard. I don't mind having my driving skills called to the test because you should always be alert especially in bad weather conditions. Lastly I'm simply more experienced with RWD winter driving. I've driven a lot of FWD cars and I don't find them hugely impressive except for getting going in the snow. If the FWD car is poorly optimized for winter, it'll be terrible regardless.

Tires and traction available.
Gotta say, installing cable chains on FWD is so much easier.
You can drape them over the top, back up a foot, crank the wheel to lock and hook up the inside.
Piece of cake.

winter driving
 

For the winter I put Dunlop winter sport 4d's on my 13 FR-S. I also threw 100lbs in the back seat. I did not have any problems getting around in the snow. The only issue I could see is if the snow is deeper than the actual ride height of the car or actual ice. Drove through several snow storms with varying levels snow on the roads. Those tires were pretty great.

Well I will tell you I've never had to be pushed up a small inclined hill in my '91 Mr2, but I barely made it with my Fr-s in this ice mess.

My opinion is probably a bit skewed being an "experienced" RWD owner however I still choose rwd over fwd any day unless I need leg room in the back.

IMO, if you can't drive a rwd car in the conditions you're attempting to drive in, you probably shouldn't be driving. Yeah, you might be able to get the car moving easier if it's FWD but does that really do you any good? Guess what? Everyone has 4 wheel stop regardless of being fwd, rwd or awd. Just because you can get a car moving in the snow/ice doesn't mean you can control it. If you can get a rwd car moving in slick conditions you're probably fully in control of the car the entire time.

In early December we had quite possibly the worst ice stom I've seen in my life. 2-3" accumulation of ice in a matter of hours. Never once did I get stuck or feel as though I lost control of the vehicle. Yeah, I slid around quite a bit but no biggie, just correct for it. Meanwhile I saw plenty of FWD cars with massive weight biases getting stuck all over (newer impalas, northstar powered cadillacs, acuras, you name it)

Fwd are better in the snow for normal driving. But a rwd in an abandoned parking lot is the best thing ever

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I was under the impression that FWD was solely created to combat adverse weather induced road conditions! Why the hell else would anyone drive a FWD vehicle? My '98 S14 got around better than my '09 civic Si sedan did in the snow! WTF?

I've always figured front drive vehicles are cheaper to manufacture because the entire driveline is one assembly. From a manufacturer standpoint you just drop the car on the front subframe and it's done.

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I'm in Canada right now and this guy was showing me where to go on a snow packed/covered road in his BMW wagon. I was driving my FWD accord. I was able to keep up no problem but I felt my car was quite close to its limit. I didn't even see him get sideways once. Both of us on snow tires.

So I think it comes down to

1. driver skill
2. size of your testicles
3. IMO RWD might be a little better than FWD as far as correcting slides since you can use your throttle as opposed to a hand brake in certain situations.

This. I drove my MK1 MR2 through some very bad winter weather on all-season tires, and it never/ever slipped once. We're talking blizzard, white-out conditions.

I would never even think of doing this in the FR-S.

yup. not every person needs a RWD to buy groceries.

From what I understand from WRC history, the first rally cars were RWD but as they raced in severe conditions, FWD really started showing its merits when designed properly compared to a similar RWD. In fact, FWD was actually gaining ground until Audi smashed everything with their AWD Quattro and pretty much shamed everyone.

So technically, FWD should be better for the same driver than RWD in adverse weather conditions. Then again, very difficult to truly test since no car manufacturer truly makes RWD and FWD on the same car as options.

The only issue I have is hills and the fact that the traction control makes it harder to drive in the snow 50% of the time.

I have found that the single most important factor is TIRES, then tires and then tires.
As far as drive wheels go the tires with more weight over them get better traction.
Thus a front heavy front wheel drive will get you moving in the direction you want best.
I had a pontiac fiero RWD mid engine car, in the snow I could move but not steer.
My old 10 ton 69 buick skylark with 200lb of weight in the back and beefy snow tires would go anywhere I dared drive.

Snow?

AWD>FWD>RWD

/Thread

Turn it off - that will help immensely with starting from a full stop.