Scion FR-S dyno by Insideline = 173 whp @ 7000 RPM, 143 lb-ft @ 2800 RPM

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

25% more torque for 160% more dollars

25% more torque *at 1500rpm* than the FR-S/BRZ make *at peak*.
Cayman R *peak* torque is 273 lb-ft, 80% more peak torque.

Anyway, just pointing out that the Cayman R's torque band isn't that bad, not trying to make any argument that the Cayman is a better value/$$$ or anything...

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by ZDan

25% more torque *at 1500rpm* than the FR-S/BRZ make *at peak*.
Cayman R *peak* torque is 273 lb-ft, 80% more peak torque.

Anyway, just pointing out that the Cayman R's torque band isn't that bad, not trying to make any argument that the Cayman is a better value/$$$ or anything...

Hah yeah I wasn't trying to argue that, just pointing out that the Cayman R is exorbitantly expensive :happy0180:

It's definitely on my list of cars I wish I could afford.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Longhorn248

Haha

Don't forget the color of the car has a direct impact on horsepower as well.

Only if it's WRB.

Originally Posted by ZDan

It's not as bad as it looks, the torque scale starts at 147, not 0.
Worth noting, where the curve starts at 1500rpm, the Cayman is making ~25% more than FR-S/BRZ *PEAK* torque.

I want a Cayman R, in that snot green color...

Fuck yes.

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

It's definitely on my list of cars I wish I could afford.

Yep.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by brianbot5000

Two things... I'm sure they dyno'd the engine during development - why didn't they fix the dip in the torque curve?

Fixing it would cost money
It's okay, aftermarket will figure out new intakes and stuff.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Fixing it would cost money
It's okay, aftermarket will figure out new intakes and stuff.

As I said somewhere else, the dip's due to cost involved in fixing the design constraints/limitations. Engineering a solution was probably too expensive. I wait in anticipation of aftermarket solutions.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Fixing it would cost money
It's okay, aftermarket will figure out new intakes and stuff.

Going back to my missing torque conspiracy, this is the fixed version.

Pretty confident they stacked up their acoustics in two places to keep it less high strung than piling it all in the ~5000+ rpm range and giving me my damned 170+ lb-ft.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Going back to my missing torque conspiracy, this is the fixed version.

Pretty confident they stacked up their acoustics in two places to keep it less high strung than piling it all in the ~5000+ rpm range and giving me my damned 170+ lb-ft.

It needs some around town torque. If they sacrificed some top end for it, I'm okay. The problem is the dip. I'd be fine with 143wtq if there wasn't a dip. 170wtq would be awesome, but that high in the rev range it's going to be approaching pointless on the street.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

It needs some around town torque. If they sacrificed some top end for it, I'm okay. The problem is the dip. I'd be fine with 143wtq if there wasn't a dip. 170wtq would be awesome, but that high in the rev range it's going to be approaching pointless on the street.

Which is why the 'dip' is the fixed version, if you look at it as two 'normal' (well a normal low rpm peak and a super-flat high one) peaks, rather than a dip.

Low peak is the around-town driving torque curve. Given low rpm operation you will feel a build up and taper down of torque probably encouraging economical short shifting while still feeling responsive.

The super flat high peak (range?) is for performance driving. Looking at the gearing and where the 'dip' is, it doesn't become an issue at close to redline shifting, the rpm don't drop into a hole.

So the only real place it will be noticeable is not properly downshifting to pass, and maybe on hard launches. Once out of first gear in performance driving it shouldn't be a big issue at all...

[DEC1]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Fixing it would cost money
It's okay, aftermarket will figure out new intakes and stuff.

Oh yea the aftermarket will solve what MILLIONS of Toyobaru $$ and engineering expertise out the wazoo couldn't solve... yup

And you guys really think you're gonna feel that slight dip in torque? really? come on...

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Which is why the 'dip' is the fixed version, if you look at it as two 'normal' (well a normal low rpm peak and a super-flat high one) peaks, rather than a dip.

Low peak is the around-town driving torque curve. Given low rpm operation you will feel a build up and taper down of torque probably encouraging economical short shifting while still feeling responsive.

The super flat high peak (range?) is for performance driving. Looking at the gearing and where the 'dip' is, it doesn't become an issue at close to redline shifting, the rpm don't drop into a hole.

So the only real place it will be noticeable is not properly downshifting to pass, and maybe on hard launches. Once out of first gear in performance driving it shouldn't be a big issue at all...

I was agreeing with you Dimman, regarding what the dip constitutes. I was disagreeing that 170wtq up top would be better than 143wtq down-low and up-top but not in the middle.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I was agreeing with you Dimman, regarding what the dip constitutes. I was disagreeing that 170wtq up top would be better than 143wtq down-low and up-top but not in the middle.

Gotcha.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by DEC1

Oh yea the aftermarket will solve what MILLIONS of Toyobaru $$ and engineering expertise out the wazoo couldn't solve... yup

And you guys really think you're gonna feel that slight dip in torque? really? come on...

To be fair, those high paid engineers have to make a lot of compromises. They had to make an engine that worked for those of us who want to play in the upper band, as well as working for those that will likely do nothing more strenuous than a highway on-ramp.

An aftermarket company has a much more focused customer base, so they won't have to make the same compromises. An aftermarket company could choose to sacrifice around-town ability for improved top-end torque.

[DEC1]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

To be fair, those high paid engineers have to make a lot of compromises. They had to make an engine that worked for those of us who want to play in the upper band, as well as working for those that will likely do nothing more strenuous than a highway on-ramp.

An aftermarket company has a much more focused customer base, so they won't have to make the same compromises. An aftermarket company could choose to sacrifice around-town ability for improved top-end torque.

touche'...and based on your posts I have a great deal of respect for your perspective, experience, etc.
I understand the compromises that need to be made to appeal to a broader demographic in addition to making sure that the car is reliable and has degree of longevity.
I guess my message was to those who mistakenly assume that they are smarter than the company that took two years ++ to develop an awesome automobile.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by DEC1

touche'...and based on your posts I have a great deal of respect for your perspective, experience, etc.
I understand the compromises that need to be made to appeal to a broader demographic in addition to making sure that the car is reliable and has degree of longevity.
I guess my message was to those who mistakenly assume that they are smarter than the company that took two years ++ to develop an awesome automobile.

It's not about being smarter, it's just a very clear compromise that the OEM made. I'm not assuming anything, having a fixed intake manifold is a design compromise no matter how you look at it, I am just pointing out that the aftermarket can provide a more expensive solution that changes the powerband favorably (in the opinions of certain people at least), for people who can afford it.