Toyota rules out GT 86 hybrid due to projected lack of demand

[MVJ1975]

The problem with further development on this platform - especially from Toyota's side -is that it's a Subaru. The engine's Subaru, the platform's Subaru, heck, even the Toyota-badged wheel caps say "Subaru" on the backside.

Anything involving it has to involve Subaru, so they have to do all of the diplomacy and horse-trading that sort of cooperation involves. This makes the whole process long, drawn out, and annoying.

This is why I suspect the 86 will simply go on for a few years and then get killed. It doesn't make much sense for either Toyota or Subaru to put a ton of development time and money into it.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by MVJ1975

The problem with further development on this platform - especially from Toyota's side -is that it's a Subaru. The engine's Subaru, the platform's Subaru, heck, even the Toyota-badged wheel caps say "Subaru" on the backside.

Anything involving it has to involve Subaru, so they have to do all of the diplomacy and horse-trading that sort of cooperation involves. This makes the whole process long, drawn out, and annoying.

This is why I suspect the 86 will simply go on for a few years and then get killed. It doesn't make much sense for either Toyota or Subaru to put a ton of development time and money into it.

I have to disagreed with you.

Old news yes, but Tada san has confirmed a second generation is already under development and that he may just do away with the boxer motor altogether.

[MVJ1975]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

I have to disagreed with you.

Old news yes, but Tada san has confirmed a second generation is already under development and that he may just do away with the boxer motor altogether.

We'll see what comes of it, but I'm not especially hopeful. I suspect that the FT-1 is going to steal the show.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by paulca

If Toyota bring out a turbo version they may piss off almost all their customers as they will devalue their cars in an instant. They will need to make it a LOT more expensive, say $10k more, to clearly separate the value of the two models.

Imagine you bought an N/A GT86 and a month later a turbo version appears on the forecourt for 3k more. Now you know when you come to sell your car in 3-5 years that the 3k margin will be down to 1k margin between turbo and non-turbo. You will hear a lot of "Is it the turbo version?, No?, Aw well, thanks anyway."

I have to disagree with you. Sure, some folks may not be happy but this happens with car models all the time. With just about any car, but particularly sports cars, every year brings some tweak the previous years did not have. More power, better suspension, more efficient flux capacitor...

Car value drops primarily because of model year and distance from new. I don't think there is anything that is going to make the N/A GT86 "undesirable" just because there is a more HP version.

Take the V6 Mustang. It has the about the same differential in price from the V8 as you are mentioning, and there is no issue selling them new or used.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by MVJ1975

We'll see what comes of it, but I'm not especially hopeful. I suspect that the FT-1 is going to steal the show.

Well I'll believe Tada san

Like others have said, sales have been good (just not in Europe). Sales are better than both the 370z and MX-5 Miata, and I'm just counting FR-S sales.

Lol, that car will be at least twice as much as the FR-S...

[MVJ1975]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Well I'll believe Tada san

Like others have said, sales have been good (expect Europe). Sales are better than both the 370z and MX-5 Miata, and I'm just counting FR-S sales.

Lol, that car will be at least twice as much as the FR-S...

Indeed it will - but there is only so much development time and money available.

Changing the boxer motor in the 86 to an inline engine isn't a minor undertaking. The only reason it's able to have the long low nose it has is because of that engine. Completely redesigning the car to meet all of the various safety regs with a new inline engine would likely result in any second generation 86 being basically an entirely different car with the "86" name on it.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by MVJ1975

Indeed it will - but there is only so much development time and money available.

Changing the boxer motor in the 86 to an inline engine isn't a minor undertaking. The only reason it's able to have the long low nose it has is because of that engine. Completely redesigning the car to meet all of the various safety regs with a new inline engine would likely result in any second generation 86 being basically an entirely different car with the "86" name on it.

Yes, and Tada san has said it will be a totally different animal from the current model.



On a different note, I think people are forgetting this car is a niche product. It was never meant to sale in huge numbers like the Camry, Corolla, Rav4 and ect. Akio has stated that Toyota isn't going after just sales numbers. They want to keep introducing more fun cars into the Toyota line up.

[MVJ1975]

Oh, certainly. It sells well for a sports car.

I strongly suspect that this car wasn't just made to prove to the world that Toyota could still make sports cars, it was also to prove it to Toyota itself.

Toyota 86 version 1 and Toyota 86 version 2 will probably be like XB1 and XB2 - they're two entirely different cars with the same name.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Tt3Sheppard

I hate to say it but I think after the first generation Toyota will drop the GT86. They will use the platform and what they've learned to produce a sedan, and CUV version that will generate sales 10x the amount while reducing research & development costs. Just a theory but with the market becoming even more competitive and CUV/truck sales increasing rapidly there is no money to be made with a revised version of the GT86.

its a niche product... news flash, but they have never really lots of money, or if any. examples are LFA, MK4 Supra, MR2, Toyota has lost money, broke even, or barely made any money at all, but Toyotao still built them for the enthusiast

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by MVJ1975

Oh, certainly. It sells well for a sports car.

I strongly suspect that this car wasn't just made to prove to the world that Toyota could still make sports cars, it was also to prove it to Toyota itself.

Toyota 86 version 1 and Toyota 86 version 2 will probably be like XB1 and XB2 - they're two entirely different cars with the same name.

That is fine with me. The original AE86 as we all know had an I4. I wouldn't mind Toyota dropping the boxer motor, and or Subaru.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by Tt3Sheppard

I hate to say it but I think after the first generation Toyota will drop the GT86. They will use the platform and what they've learned to produce a sedan, and CUV version that will generate sales 10x the amount while reducing research & development costs. Just a theory but with the market becoming even more competitive and CUV/truck sales increasing rapidly there is no money to be made with a revised version of the GT86.

I'm sad to say it, but I'm afraid this is the most likely scenario. The FR-S maybe selling well in North America compared to say, the 370Z or even (the now VERY long in the tooth, current generation) MX-5. But it has not met the sales expectations that Toyota and Subaru had laid out for it. Yasayuki Yoshinaga, president of Fuji Heavy industries was quoted as saying that they expected to produce (and one assumes, sell) 100,000 GT86/FR-S/BRZ units per year. In truth, they've only just reached this number after 2 years of production. (link below)

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/19/s...-86-and-scion/

I don't think Toyota were ever under any illusions that this car was going to be a 'big' seller. They knew all along that it was going to be a niche car. An enthusiast's car. And they saw it as their way to get back into the sports coupe market and begin produce 'exciting' cars again. But at this point, when one considers all the R&D they and Subaru pumped into this project, the fact that it isn't selling as well as expected, likely means that they either already have, or soon will stop thinking with their hearts and will look at the bottom line.

And if they can use the chassis and the R&D which they pumped into the project, as a basis for a 'sporty' sedan, something that will sell much better than the '86, I have no doubt that they'll quickly push in this direction. And it's something I find more than a little lamantable. When we think of all the sports coups that have disappeared over the years: Porsche 944/968, Nissan 240/Sylvia, Toyota MR2, Celica, Supra, Mazda RX-7, RX-8...well, I'm afraid the current GT86 may be destined to be just another another footnote in automotive history by the end of it's model run.

I can only hope I'm wrong.

[paulca]

Lexus tend to do the "Sporty Salon" type cars. I think the only reason the GT86 wasn't a Lexus is because it's not "luxury" enough.

Toyota of late have a worse reputation than Honda did for a while for making old people mobiles. I even got a laugh from the dealer when I was handed the key and said, "Well it's got a Toyota badge on it, at least no-one under 50 will try and steal it."

Yet they have great heritage. 2000GT, MR2, Celica, Supra etc. I just see the GT86 as the next generation affordable sports car like the Celica. A new Supra will be a more expensive, less compromised sports car... if they actually make it.

EDIT: I actually don't see the GT86 as compromised in anything but tiny details. Some may say the lower power is a compromise, I don't agree.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

I'm sad to say it, but I'm afraid this is the most likely scenario. The FR-S maybe selling well in North America compared to say, the 370Z or even (the now VERY long in the tooth, current generation) MX-5. But it has not met the sales expectations that Toyota and Subaru had laid out for it. Yasayuki Yoshinaga, president of Fuji Heavy industries was quoted as saying that they expected to produce (and one assumes, sell) 100,000 GT86/FR-S/BRZ units per year. In truth, they've only just reached this number after 2 years of production. (link below)

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/19/s...-86-and-scion/

I don't think Toyota were ever under any illusions that this car was going to be a 'big' seller. They knew all along that it was going to be a niche car. An enthusiast's car. And they saw it as their way to get back into the sports coupe market and begin produce 'exciting' cars again. But at this point, when one considers all the R&D they and Subaru pumped into this project, the fact that it isn't selling as well as expected, likely means that they either already have, or soon will stop thinking with their hearts and will look at the bottom line.

And if they can use the chassis and the R&D which they pumped into the project, as a basis for a 'sporty' sedan, something that will sell much better than the '86, I have no doubt that they'll quickly push in this direction. And it's something I find more than a little lamantable. When we think of all the sports coups that have disappeared over the years: Porsche 944/968, Nissan 240/Sylvia, Toyota MR2, Celica, Supra, Mazda RX-7, RX-8...well, I'm afraid the current GT86 may be destined to be just another another footnote in automotive history by the end of it's model run.

I can only hope I'm wrong.

How the hell could you have "forgotten" to include the Integra, Prelude, and S2000 on that list?

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by paulca

Toyota of late have a worse reputation than Honda did for a while for making old people mobiles. I even got a laugh from the dealer when I was handed the key and said, "Well it's got a Toyota badge on it, at least no-one under 50 will try and steal it."

after the S2000 ended production in 2009 Honda had nothing, and still to this day that holds true.

at least Toyota had the LFA (2011) and IS-F (2007). Lexus I know, but still.