07-12-2016, 11:00 AM | #10067 |
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during summer, it lacks little power..still better than stock.
I am so used to ESC now and dont feel i am getting boost a lot lol I am like wow! car is gonna be damm slow if i uninstall ESC |
07-12-2016, 12:33 PM | #10068 |
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So true. With e85, the ESC is a fair bit punchier. Still, try turning it off for a few hours if you can bear it. Ugh. These cars are a lot of fun stock, but man you gotta work that motor hard. With the ESC on it feels like just the right amount of power for the chassis on the street.
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07-12-2016, 12:53 PM | #10069 | |
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Quote:
In any case, the reason why the video had a 86 on e85 vs Kraftwerks, is that e85 can be run for no extra cost with an OFT or other open tuning platforms. The tune is out there. So if a Phantom owner has e85 in their area, running Phantom + e85 is indicative of the performance available for no extra charge. Whereas with traditional F.I. + ECUTek (or others) an e85 tune typically has to be purchased for an extra cost. Fair point about everyone running catless in Florida vs California. That moves the baseline up for these cars quite a bit and may be a big differentiatior vs cars in CARB states. A well tuned catless header + e85 setup can come close to the max output of a Phantom v.1 + CA91 car with the torque curves still being very different. There is one NA car in the graph I posted that put down a VERY impressive 217 WHP (belonging to Danthedirt) on an AFEPower EL header but with a pretty nasty torque dip. A UEL header would kill the dip but have a less impressive top end. ACE headers with integrated overpipe are dynoing similar numbers but without the dip but at premium price. The Phantom kit is for someone that wants the best possible torque output, low cost, and easy install, but doesn't plan on running above 6500 RPM consistently the way someone on a racetrack would (which is actually most drivers, even though they won't admit it). I haven't put my car on a drag strip, but I would like to. For the few cars that have we're seeing high 13's to low 14's with traps above 100 MPH. Indeed weather matters, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Thanks for the convo. No matter how it goes, its still good to have a forum to knock these things around. |
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07-12-2016, 03:24 PM | #10070 | |
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Whats your opinion on the V1 versus V2? Remember though I have big cranks on the V1. That alone should make a big difference vs. the power sonics.
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07-12-2016, 03:36 PM | #10071 | |
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This applies to the KW comparison. That being on CA91 and CARB tuning yeah I could believe the race. Since the KW was likely at ~240whp. The ESC car at 225whp with yes much more torque under 5K. But its comparing the worse the KW can be vs the best the ESC can be. Around here I just don't see Carb tunes. Everyone is up near 300 whp on 93 or 350+ on e85 with custom Ecutek tunes. Turbo guys are 500+. Also in part we have "Jamesm" in town who's great at tuning. Banned awhile ago if you remember him.
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07-12-2016, 04:44 PM | #10072 | |
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Since I was the guy that tested the kraftwerks vs phantom... The kraftwerks blew me away plain and simple. I had him to about 50-60 mph and everything beyond that was him. Easily. Now here's the difference: he's now spent close to 10k on the car. Around when we raced it was around 7k. For bang for your buck nothing comes close. Just all the supporting mods needed to run a traditional system start to rack up quickly. And that's not including all the issues that arise when installing the equipment or running that much boost. Sure it's safe now but how long before something goes wrong? In the terms of the KW? All the damn time for my friend. The phantom isn't the cure all to FI. It's a fun median though and it fills a niche very few can compete in... Simple install 5-6 psi Inexpensive Reliable If you look at how long some of us have been running the system... Theres a reason we are really happy. It's just running great. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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07-12-2016, 05:01 PM | #10073 | |
I got sucked into boost..
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Reliable is for sure - i just got a BRZ with supercharger and my first issues are squeaky belt And throwing map sensor codes. New belt and tune in the works for that = More money and time. With the ESC, I had shiv do a tune for me and never looked back for 1.5 years. All on original PC batteries . Can't beat the ease of use and install ✔️ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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07-12-2016, 05:41 PM | #10074 | |
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07-13-2016, 02:54 PM | #10075 |
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Yes agreed it is a happy medium...no supporting mods is nice. Very reliable and simple. Also moderate power. You have to pay to play. I think you guys might be exaggerating on the costs of conventional FI though. One example is SBD, lots run it around me with just an oil cooler, stock clutch lasts for a bit.
Sad side is no one can buy the kit. So you know this talk is fun for the owners but the community is really missing out.
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07-13-2016, 04:12 PM | #10076 |
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Does this kit still use the switch under the throttle pedal or have y'all moved to a better solution?
Last edited by radroach; 07-13-2016 at 05:45 PM. |
07-13-2016, 04:41 PM | #10077 |
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it comes standard with the switch, but you can upgrade and buy the proceede. This lets you plot boost vs throttle %.
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07-13-2016, 05:02 PM | #10078 | |
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Supporting mods are available for higher power levels, but the KW kit doesn't require anything extra at the carb tune power levels. The MSRP is $4800 for KW kit including tuning, not to mention the KW kit (or other FI kits) can often be had for less than MSRP. VS $2650 for the Phantom base with required batteries and tuning. Add extra bigger batteries or the PROcede and costs start piling up, really knocking on the door of cheap full time FI. (OFT turbo for $3250) Not to say it isn't cheaper and simpler to install, but don't exaggerate the cost delta. I really thought about the Phantom kit for a while, but the on/off nature deterred me from following through. |
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07-13-2016, 06:00 PM | #10079 | ||
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I've ran my Phantom kit with TRD Drop-In filter, Catless UEL - 2.75" OP/ 2.75" catless FP and TRD exhaust which should produce more power than Sojhinn's setup at the time with just a catless front pipe. To be honest, all of those extra mods didn't make the car feel any quicker. In this post Sojhinn runs with stock with nlowell running with an OFH. A UEL offers marginal performance improvement (at best). http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=6985 [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFH4oPutR4"]FT86 OFH Performance Comparison - YouTube[/ame] I'm currently running my Phantom kit with just the TRD Drop-In filter and Catback and it feels like it pulls harder than it did with all the above extra parts (so I'm selling them). Point is, that Sojhinn's extra mods are probably not making any appreciable extra power at all. On cost, you're adding costs to the Phantom kit, while omitting costs from a KW kit. What I mean is this... The Phantom kit doesn't require an OFT to tune it. You can use a Tactrix cable and one of the tunes floating around for it that most closely match your hardware. Kit + Batteries are about $2200 - $2300. Proceed is totally optional. I ran my kit with the 1 and 2 stage (non proceed) switches for 1.5 years and loved it. I ran the cheapest Powersonic batteries and also was very happy. Sojhinn was probably NOT running the proceed in the video that was posted (because it wasn't available at the time). Lastly, the biggest cost savings you barely touched on is that the Phantom can be easily self installed by rank amateurs in about 2 hours. That brings us to traditional F.I.... The KW or any Turbo kit can and should not be installed by an amateur (especially a turbo kit) and it wouldn't be recommended to try. Current estimates on the board are about $1000 - $1500 to install various SCs and Turbos (depending on complexity). So that $4800 number becomes $5800 - $6300 without any supporting mods required at high HP. Sure a decent mechanic could work out a self install, personally I wouldn't. The $7k and $10 numbers come from nlowell (the owner of the Kraftwerks car) not Sojhinn nor myself. Which probably includes follow-ups just to keep his car running safely. He's posted himself in this thread about his experiences going to Kraftwerks from Phantom. Look it up, then post, it'll save some of these kinds of redundant replies. Quote:
The costs mentioned are not being exaggerated. There is a reason why Rob keeps the Phantom power levels about where they are. Sure more voltage could be added and/or upgrading the batteries and increasing the capacity of the controller and motor. This would take the costs and complexity outside of where the Phantom kit has its' clear advantages in the market. For that simple reason, there is no need to exaggerate anything. For $2.3k Rob's Phantom kit is unique and speaks for itself. Last edited by DAEMANO; 07-13-2016 at 06:26 PM. |
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07-13-2016, 06:31 PM | #10080 | ||||
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You could perform a similar task for tuning on other FI kits too, but is definitely ill advised in either setup. Quote:
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The cost isn't much higher on the Phantom kit, but you are exaggerating to a large degree the cost of a full time FI kit, especially when comparing to the use case of the Phantom. (very low duty cycle) Don't take it as an insult as the cost is still much lower and for some it matches well to a low priced sports car. But the numbers mentioned are skewed. |
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