Autocar: BRZ vs. MX-5 vs. 370Z

[86design]

BRZ FTW!!!!

[val_lixembeau]

Originally Posted by Snoopyalien24

Well most of those cars lives ended before the NSX in '05, and only the S2k can rival that with the RX-8 being kinda heavy and not having the same fun factor.

Say what? Have you actually driven an RX-8?

I'm trying to imagine a driver who would like what the BRZ is reported to be and who wouldn't find an RX-8 to be a fun drive and I just can't see it. What is the purpose of the BRZ if not to provide some Zoom-Zoom(TM) to your life?

[mattles]

BRZ is a slightly smaller, way more reliable RX8 XD

[val_lixembeau]

Originally Posted by fatoni

im not saying that this thing must have more hp in order to be a sports car or even a more useable daily driver. im just saying it easier to appreciate more power than more handling as far as commuting tasks go. its not what i would want buy it is more practical imo

That's interesting.

I personally feel the opposite from you.

You can feel at least a bit of a well sorted suspension every single time you turn a corner, go over a bump, accelerate, or stop. The ride/handling balance is always evident. The steering is constantly talking to you. The tire choice makes itself felt even at moderate speeds when it rains or snows.

But how often can you use more power than what the BRZ has? In my daily driving of a Mazda3 hatch, I almost never have a chance to rev past about 4500 rpm, and I am down on power and up on weight compared to a sports car.

So I don't see where in a daily driver you could possibly use all 200hp often, let alone even more power!

Edit: oh wait, just noticed that a) Daemione already said the same thing I just did, and b) you live in SoCal... (ie: heavy traffic and not much weather).

[ZmZMWagon]

Originally Posted by mattles

BRZ is a slightly smaller, way more reliable RX8 XD

How do we know it's more reliable? The RX8 is reliable when you take care of it like you should take care of any car.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by ZmZMWagon

How do we know it's more reliable? The RX8 is reliable when you take care of it like you should take care of any car.

I used to follow the big RX-8 forum for a while, flooded engines from short drives were a big headache (won't restart - so you can't drive it for a few minutes and turn it off), gas mileage with vigorous driving blew chunks (low teens).

[mattles]

I was just being a troll, everyone knows a naturally aspirated rotary engine can be plenty reliable.

However, Im willing to bet that the BRZ\FRS will be more reliable and economical than an RX8.

[scorcherjf]

The fact is... no one knows how reliable the BRZ. What we do know is that we can proxy other similar sized piston engines or engines from subaru and estimate that the BRZ will probably be pretty reliable compared to a rotary. Although I think a well maintained rotary car can still be quite reliable. I do notice that with a rotary car I actually check more things... like not turning the car off when it's cold and also checking the oil level more frequently since it actually uses the oil for lubrication rather than just burning it off randomly. In the end a well maintained piston engine will most likely out-last a well maintained rotary engine due to the design, but both will last quite a long time imo.

Originally Posted by ZmZMWagon

How do we know it's more reliable? The RX8 is reliable when you take care of it like you should take care of any car.

[86fanatic]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

The fact is... no one knows how reliable the BRZ. What we do know is that we can proxy other similar sized piston engines or engines from subaru and estimate that the BRZ will probably be pretty reliable compared to a rotary. Although I think a well maintained rotary car can still be quite reliable. I do notice that with a rotary car I actually check more things... like not turning the car off when it's cold and also checking the oil level more frequently since it actually uses the oil for lubrication rather than just burning it off randomly. In the end a well maintained piston engine will most likely out-last a well maintained rotary engine due to the design, but both will last quite a long time imo.

Exactly. From what I can tell there is no indication that RX8 engine problems are any more or less frequent then ringland issues with STI engines. There are plenty of people with replaced RX8 engines, and plenty of people with replaced STI engines.

People are acting like this is going to be a reliable Toyota car, but the high performance engine is coming from Subaru. I don't think Subaru's recent track record with high performance cars has been anything to gloat about or be confident in.

If anything FRS/BRZ reliability is one thing that I'm most worried about. Direct injection is in general not an easy thing to do, and combine that with a high output boxer engine, it's a potential recipe for problems.

[ryun84]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

Exactly. From what I can tell there is no indication that RX8 engine problems are any more or less frequent then ringland issues with STI engines. There are plenty of people with replaced RX8 engines, and plenty of people with replaced STI engines.

People are acting like this is going to be a reliable Toyota car, but the high performance engine is coming from Subaru. I don't think Subaru's recent track record with high performance cars has been anything to gloat about or be confident in.

If anything FRS/BRZ reliability is one thing that I'm most worried about. Direct injection is in general not an easy thing to do, and combine that with a high output boxer engine, it's a potential recipe for problems.

"Plenty" is a misleading word to use when talking about STI engine failures. There are "plenty" of threads on NASIOC and other Subaru forums regarding engine failures, but readers and the public have blown it out of proportion. Even the older members of these forums have responded to the increasing number of "Bro, the stock tune sucks so your engine will explode" and "I can't sleep because I'm afraid my ringlands will fail" threads by saying that owners are overreacting.

Are there failures out there? Sure. Are there car manufacturers out there with perfect records? Not that I know of. What we have to realize is that a Subaru forum is not a good representation of the whole population of Subaru owners. While there may seem to be a lot of failures being reported on forums, this is just a fraction of the total number of cars. There are, in fact, many STIs that have many miles on the ODO without any issues outside of regular maintenance and normal wear and tear.

There's a thread on NASIOC (or another forum, I forget which) that also did a poll to gather information regarding ringland/engine issues for the GR chassis. The poll showed that the majority of the failures were with modified cars. When we modify, most of us do it while understanding that there is a risk to changing stock parts which can lead to car malfunctions (pay to play). It's just part of the game.

Also, the failures you're referring to involve turbo motors. The BRZ is NA so that is one less thing you have to worry about causing a failure. Now, with D4S, we'll just have to wait and see what the future holds.

[86fanatic]

Which is more blown out of proportion? RX8 engine failures or STI ringland failures?

It's not clear and that was my point. Looking at Subaru's history you can't really assume that the BRZ is going to be more reliable then the RX8.

I know people personally who had to replace their STI engines, I'm not even talking about online.

I don't think being NA is going to make the engine any more safe either. It's a brand new, extremely high compression, high performance engine from Subaru. I wouldn't make any assumptions about it's relative reliability compared to the RX8 at this stage.

[samsam5886]

Excellent read. Makes me want to get one even more. Thanks for posting!

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

Which is more blown out of proportion? RX8 engine failures or STI ringland failures?

It's not clear and that was my point. Looking at Subaru's history you can't really assume that the BRZ is going to be more reliable then the RX8.

I know people personally who had to replace their STI engines, I'm not even talking about online.

I don't think being NA is going to make the engine any more safe either. It's a brand new, extremely high compression, high performance engine from Subaru. I wouldn't make any assumptions about it's relative reliability compared to the RX8 at this stage.

Do we want to talk about failed Vanos on e36/e46 M3s?
Or the tons of melted VW 1.4 TFSI engines?
Turbo fails on the 3.0 biturbo BMW?
You need to listen to the nightmare story of the DPF and turbo problems on modern diesel engines from any brand...

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

Which is more blown out of proportion? RX8 engine failures or STI ringland failures?

This motor is a closer relative to the EZ H-6 motors Subaru has made than the Turbo EJ motors from the STI's... And those EZ H6 motors are the most reliable, best motors Subaru has ever built. I have no concerns about its future reliability.