GT86 vs Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.6 R

[JPxM0Dz]

[ame]http://youtu.be/Ipb3VBpDvis[/ame]

[R.S-HawK]

Originally Posted by JPxM0Dz

Touché.

[Demandred7]

Originally Posted by thill

Hyundai is dumping huge discounts on them. I can find 3.8L models for $26K where I live (about $7K off sticker). 2.0T models are going for $20K.

Originally Posted by R.S-HawK

From a few friends working at Hyundai, my understanding is that they MIGHT have (slightly) overproduced the '14 model, and since the car is rumored for a 2015 redesign, they're pushing to have 2013s out the door at even.



Which I can second. OtD price for my 3.8 R-Spec was $27,200.

Wow. Just giving them away. I was just going off the website MSRP. Hard to pass up that kind of discount. Seems like they are just going for market share instead of profit. Makes one wonder when discounts are that plentiful.

[tennisfreak]

$27k for the 3.8 R spec?

Damn near make we wanna cruise by the dealer and see if its true.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

$27k for the 3.8 R spec?

Damn near make we wanna cruise by the dealer and see if its true.

Website states starting MSRP is at $29,350 for a base 3.8 R Spec. I'm sure with some haggling, good credit, and a fat down payment that price is attainable. Just depends on how patient you are and how stubborn the dealership you're at will be.

[Skeneypoo]

I WAS GOING TO GET THE GENESIS COUPE, AND THEN I READ THE REVIEWS.

This is a very common issue with their 2.0T models.
http://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/genes...iewId=75575207

A lot of people, almost everyone, has issues with the Turbo wastegate after about 5000 miles. The car rattles and clanks, but since it's not "broken" Hyundiagay won't fix it.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

No you can't. You and I both know that a GT300/500 car goes through far more chassis and engine modification than the Griffon. Those cars pretty much only share a similar skin. That would be analogous to calling a NASCAR a 'stock car'. Nice try though.


I also didn't get the memo when 'tilting' became the slang term for an idiom. In which case it seems rather redundant but nvm that.


Thanks for the boron extrication link though!

That is what I am asking. At what point do you not consider it a _____ car? The griffon is completely carbon fiber w custom computer modeled aero and a factory built engine on non dot legal straight up racing slicks. Its not even something a privateer group can match; its basically a factory sponsored works car. Its pointless to buy a fr-s because the griffon exists, unless you have >>100k lying around to try to replicate it. As I said in another thread, its kind of like buying a Scion tc because of Chris rado's time attack tc.

Please read the wiki again. Tilting refers to jousting. "Tilting at windmills" refers to Don quixote trying to fight widmills. It is an idiom that means fighting imaginary enemies... I cant believe I had to explain this...

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by totopo

Please read the wiki again. Tilting refers to jousting. "Tilting at windmills" refers to Don quixote trying to fight widmills. It is an idiom that means fighting imaginary enemies... I cant believe I had to explain this...

Granted everyone can use a Wiki. But can you really not believe you had to explain a jousting reference?

Is this what you do on your weekends? :P

[totopo]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Granted everyone can use a Wiki. But can you really not believe you had to explain a jousting reference?

Is this what you do on your weekends? :P

I cant believe no one has heard the idiom "Tilting at windmills." am I just getting old? I thought it was a commonly known idiom

Edit: maybe its just kids these days dont read! The idiom has been around since the 1600s

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by totopo

That is what I am asking. At what point do you not consider it a _____ car? The griffon is completely carbon fiber w custom computer modeled aero and a factory built engine on non dot legal straight up racing slicks. Its not even something a privateer group can match; its basically a factory sponsored works car. Its pointless to buy a fr-s because the griffon exists, unless you have >>100k lying around to try to replicate it. As I said in another thread, its kind of like buying a Scion tc because of Chris rado's time attack tc.

Please read the wiki again. Tilting refers to jousting. "Tilting at windmills" refers to Don quixote trying to fight widmills. It is an idiom that means fighting imaginary enemies... I cant believe I had to explain this...

I can't believe you can't understand that the idiom (which you didn't even quote correctly to begin with) is analogous with a straw man fallacy which was an incorrect deduction on your part to begin with. Clearly having read Don Quixote is no replacement for understanding logic. Btw, Aristotle, Plato and Socrates go further back by a few more thousand years.


I also can't believe you don't understand the Griffon is the same chassis as the one you buy stock. We were talking about chassis capability, not reskinned race cars made from one off frames. So if you could stop 'tilting' that'd be great. Thx.


If you start quoting Victor Hugo's Les Miserables too I'd recommend hopping off your donkey and just drowning yourself in the Seine. In the meantime, I'll go smoke a Sancho Panza Dulcinea in your honor.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

I can't believe you can't understand that the idiom (which you didn't even quote correctly to begin with) is analogous with a straw man fallacy which was an incorrect deduction on your part to begin with. Clearly having read Don Quixote is no replacement for understanding logic. Btw, Aristotle, Plato and Socrates go further back by a few more thousand years.

what, stylistically I can't use different turns of phrase? It was the correct one to use too. Because people were trying to say: The 86 feels fun, and handles well in terms of fun, but doesn't handle that well in terms of traction and track times. And you read it as: the 86 doesn't handle fun or fast. Which is not what people were trying to say.

I also can't believe you don't understand the Griffon is the same chassis as the one you buy stock. We were talking about chassis capability, not reskinned race cars made from one off frames. So if you could stop 'tilting' that'd be great. Thx.

Haha, so the whole point of talking about tuned cars, is again, money and rules. Again, why don't you buy a scion tc then? I mean look at that chris rado tc, doesn't it prove that it's a superior chasis!!?!?!?!?!? The whole point of the gt500 car, is I similarly don't view the griffon as a reasonable thing to look at.

So what is acceptable to you? Why is re-welding the frame for stiffness acceptable, but carving out parts of the frame for weight unaccetable? Is a roll cage for stiffness acceptable? Is changing suspension mounting points kosher? Is changing track width kosher? What kind of wheels are good (how many people on this planet are possibly going to run full racing slicks on an 86). Where do you draw the line on aero? Is any amount of aero acceptable? How about engine mods? engine swap? turbo an NA car?

Why worry about how a car performs with >100k in mods? I rather worry about how a car performs when I take it to the track.

So by your logic does this prove that the genesis is an awesome chassis?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAGKPb8-US4"]Rhys Millen owns Pike's Peak in Red Bull Hyundai Genesis - YouTube[/ame]

If you start quoting Victor Hugo's Les Miserables too I'd recommend hopping off your donkey and just drowning yourself in the Seine. In the meantime, I'll go smoke a Sancho Panza Dulcinea in your honor.

hahaha

[Pbrown]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

$27k for the 3.8 R spec?

Damn near make we wanna cruise by the dealer and see if its true.

That's a great price. $10000 difference between the FRS and Gen 3.8 here in Canada so price has made the cars incomparable. Noticed more people are curious about the twins at shows. I am slowly spending the 10000 difference working my way up to the OFT 300, That should significantly narrow the playing field when it comes to power to weight ratio and I will have the element of surprise on my side. Should be fun. Full transition will be complete year 4.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by totopo

what, stylistically I can't use different turns of phrase? It was the correct one to use too. Because people were trying to say: The 86 feels fun, and handles well in terms of fun, but doesn't handle that well in terms of traction and track times. And you read it as: the 86 doesn't handle fun or fast. Which is not what people were trying to say.


You are coming off completely daft and have a right to . Your grammar and reading comprehension leave a lot to be desired. You quoted my post directly, not what other people said when you made your fallacious comment. Simple as that. Now you may have wished it to mean something with respect to something else, but your lack of clear writing and communication didn't afford the possibility. You still have no idea what I've been saying or how I read into anything so don't try to put words in my mouth. Go back and read from the beginning very sloooowly this time.

All the videos I linked prove the chassis is capable of handling well in terms of both traction and times. If you want to try to frame a tuner car into your idea of bone stock times off a factory floor go ahead. It still wouldn't make any sense due to the tire limitation you yourself acknowledged. By your own reduction ad absurdum, how far show we go to maintain YOUR standards? How much tread depth, mileage, oil viscosity, tire pressure, fuel load, pad wear, glove box capacity, etc., ad nauseum should be used to determine what car has a better chassis?? Notice how stupid that sounds? By your logic, no cars could ever be compared or talked about in terms of chassis capability unless all those things and more are equalized.

My point is, and has been, that the best times anyone can put out using a stock chassis should be fairly indicative of its potential. After all your blathering, you have yet to link one single direct comparison of equal classes on equal conditions of the cars in question to prove anything otherwise.


Haha, so the whole point of talking about tuned cars, is again, money and rules. Again, why don't you buy a scion tc then? I mean look at that chris rado tc, doesn't it prove that it's a superior chasis!!?!?!?!?!?


Apart from rules which you included, yeah so what? If it's the same chassis (uncut and not redesigned) and drivetrain layout from factory, go for it. Problem with your example (and almost all of your examples) is they are not. The latest Rado TC is AWD. It also delivers up to 65psi in boost pushing 2200lbs over 1000hp and still came in slower than the 86 buttonwillow time I linked earlier. Even your own argument gets the facts wrong. So by all means, compare the TC, it's still slower than the heavier and vastly less powerful 86. Should tell you something about the difference in chassis capabilities, no? Of course, not to your obstinate mind.


The whole point of the gt500 car, is I similarly don't view the griffon as a reasonable thing to look at.


Too effing bad, Griffon is all modified off the basic stock chassis. Just because you like the idea of something or fancy it, doesn't make your analogy right. Did they not teach you objectivity in Engineering? The GT500 and GT300 cars are not. In your world apples=oranges. The Evasive BRZ and Griffon both have mods that are not aero unlimited FWD or AWD TCs with stacks of wings, Super GT new frames or even a Red Bull/Newey fan car. Your extreme examples don't diminish the fact that the Evasive BRZ and Griffon have competitors that meet or exceed their level of modification and yet they still do well.

So what is acceptable to you? Why is re-welding the frame for stiffness acceptable, but carving out parts of the frame for weight unaccetable?


You think tacking welds is the equivalent of cutting up a frame and redesigning entire portions of it or simply using a completely different frame is the same thing?? I can't believe this is so difficult for someone who claims to be educated in the sciences to not comprehend constants versus variables. When we compare chassis A to chassis B, which item should remain the most constant? The chassis because it's the subject of the hypothesis in question! FFS.

Why worry about how a car performs with >100k in mods? I rather worry about how a car performs when I take it to the track.


Because racing at it's very inception, core and concept was designed to test the capabilities of a vehicle. Proof is in the pudding. Which was the point of the argument in the first place. What is the 86 chassis capable of? Not, what is a stock 86 capable of off the showroom floor on Prius tires. Not, what is a one-off tube frame skinned to look like a 370z capable of. These are all different things. If YOU want to talk about those last two things, feel free. I've only been talking about the first premise so no need to drag me into your fantasy world.

Maybe you are as old as Don Quixote which is why this hasn't been sinking in?? Btw, you played the age card first, so you reap what you sow.

So by your logic does this prove that the genesis is an awesome chassis?

Does it matter if this FRS video is 01:39 faster. ;P

Btw, since when was the discussion about what constitutes an 'awesome' chassis? Nvm, don't answer that, I know you won't get the nuance.

Now if you are done spitting in the wind (note the complete use of the idiom phrase as to not leave confusion, not 'spitting' or 'winding'), can we finally move back to people defending leather and residual values?

[Abraxen]

I've been a lurker here since March 2014, and having come across this topic decided to register and reply. This will probably be a little long winded, and as such, get ignored by many. But I just felt I'd share my perspective.

Having not owned a car for at least 5 years, around March 2014 I decided to change that. Based on what I was looking for and what I could afford, the search was narrowed down to the FR-S (preferred the styling over the BRZ) and the Genesis.

Started test driving a Genesis 2.0 turbo automatic, which is all the dealership that I went to had. Forget the trim, but it was cloth seats and basic interior. My girlfriend loved it, and pushed for me to get it. However I wanted a manual, so while I talked some numbers with the dealership, I wasn't going to seriously entertain purchasing anything they had.

Went to a Scion dealership and test drove a FR-S. They pulled a little bait and switch as they had me drive some special edition (forget off hand, but it was the silver one). Had more things than what I'm thinking was the base Genesis, it was a manual, and to be honest I really liked the car. They only had the silver special editions and older red ones, so after talking some numbers, I put a $500 refundable deposit for them to get me a black 2014 from another dealership. I would have likely purchased the car that day had they had what I was looking for. For reference, my girlfriend really didn't like the FR-S.

So I went home, and started lurking the 86 forums. Figured out that my FR-S wasn't going to be equipped with the same things as the car I test drove. Kind of minor things, but the were creature comfort/tech things that I appreciated. Still, I thought I'd be cool with it. I talked to my step dad, who works with a dealership that sells both Hyundai and Scions, and said he'd see what he could do about the employee discount.

He got back to me the next day with two pieces of information:

1. He couldn't budge on the price of the FR-S due to the pure pricing.

2. He had a brand new black 2013 Genesis 3.8 R-Spec manual, that after employee pricing, would be the same price as the FR-S I put a deposit down on.

At this point I wasn't able to drive a 3.8 manual Genesis, but given the pricing, I knew I'd regret it if I didn't. That weekend (one week apart from the FR-S deposit...due to lack of a car I could only do my dealer visits on the weekends), I decided I'd find a dealer with a 3.8 Genesis in stock and make my decision that day.

I found a dealership that had a 2013 3.8 Ultimate (Track) manual in stock. I knew they were out of my price range, but the engine and transmission would be the same as the R-Spec my step dad had (he's 120 miles away, so I didn't want to make that trip just for a test drive). Walked into the dealership and they had a gorgeous silver 3.8 Ultimate manual sitting in the show room as soon as you walked in.

Now I really liked the base Genesis in the original dealership, but seeing the Ultimate was a huge difference. My girlfriend and I looked at each other out of shock on said difference. Still, I'm only there to test drive one to see if I'd be interested in the one my step dad had. Look at the red tag...$2,500 more than the FR-S and the R-Spec my step dad had.

Test drove it's identical twin that was out in the parking lot. Loved it. Leather, sun roof, heated seats, more speakers than I could count, touch screen nav system, spoiler, 19" wheels, etc.

After they knew I loved it, they tried to tell me I wasn't eligible for everything that got the car to the price on the red tag. Told them I couldn't do a penny more, I had the FR-S on hold, and about the R-Spec my step dad had. Got every single cent off, and got a Ultimate for $28,500.

I wanted to share this story because even though I ended up in a Genesis, I could have easily owned a FR-S had they had what I wanted. I would have likely been happy in either car.

I may have likely gotten lucky with the price, but what sold me on the Genesis vs. the FR-S really came down to the FR-S lacking in "performance" and creature comfort/tech compared to what I have now. Meaning if the FR-S were slightly cheaper, or the "performance"/creature comfort/tech was a little nicer, I would have had a more difficult time debating between the two options.

I put "performance" in quotes because I knew that would get picked on. The FR-S felt good, especially compared to the 2.0 Genesis I drove. But I don't take my car to the track either. I live in a city and 80% of my drive time is a mix between city and highway. 10% is weekend trips around the city, and the other 10% is trips about 100 to 120 miles north or south of where I live, which is mostly highway. So while the FR-S did feel like it handled better, the extra power of the 3.8 Genesis was something I'd be more likely to take advantage of. I don't mind the weight, and in fact actually like that the Genesis has more of a substantial feel to it. And as much as know people like to knock Hyundai here, at least from what I've seen from this topic, I did like the warranty and haven't had an issue at all so far.

I mentioned my girlfriend a few times, so I wanted to mention why. She's likely going to be "the one", so while this is my car that I'm paying for, she's also the most frequent passenger. Her preference wasn't going to be the determining factor, but was a mild consideration. She did prefer the Genesis due to it being a bigger car, and while not a overwhelming difference, the back seat is also larger, which is a consideration for kids. The creature comfort was also a major factor for her. She also preferred the look of the Genesis, but I think that was also because the FR-S was smaller.

What this all boils down to is price, features, and personal preferences. I still check out every 86 I see, I still point them out to my girlfriend, she still says she's glad I got my Genesis, and so am I. My only regret is that I can't afford to have both. It also makes me sad she doesn't like the FR-S and won't buy one so I can drive it too.