Proof that Coilovers Reduce Lap Times??????

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Purist

Yeah sorry I know its a vague question. I'm considering my options to find a few tenths and just was wondering at club/amateur level if just a set of $2000 coilovers and alignment will have any benefits. Seems like unless you really know your shit, or can afford a lot of time with someone who does, its probably not high on the 'bang for buck' performance upgrade list.

And that is what I'm trying to avoid! If I dropped two grand and didn't go any faster I would be devastated.

Don't buy something unless you can point to a specific thing the car is doing that you want to correct or improve. If you can't point to anything that needs improvement then the driver is the weak point and more seat time and instruction is the key.

imo alignment does wonders, my favorite setup has been camber bolts and camber plates, good brake pads and fluid and tires. Experimentation is useful but expensive, scientific method speeds up the process of improvement, hypothesize, setup, test, analyze, repeat.

[SuperTom]

I took the opposite approach that most recommend. Most recommend the "driver mod" first then parts modding. On the C5 I spent 5 years building it up Power,BBK, Coilovers, Wheels ect. for how "I" wanted it. Then took it too my first track event. My logic is to learn to drive the car in its modded state for how I want it then make minor tweaks to suspension ect. Instead of relearning to drive the car everytime major mods where made. I was pushing C6's and SS Camaro's my first go around. And realized the only deficiency in my setup was slippery (all season) tires. So I only have 1 thing to change out.


On my 86 Ive done the same path of coilovers, wheels/tires, Power. Still haven't even't done my first oil change on it yet. But will take it at the end of summer to track days and see how it does modded.

[ajc209]

Here is a video comparing a very well setup car (was the fastest FWD car around the ring) from the factory and then with upgraded to Ohlins R&T dampers. Spring rates remain the same.

0.4s in a 1m20 lap.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCJQ6GxfwFc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCJQ6GxfwFc[/ame]

[MeisterR]

Coilovers doesn't reduce lap time on its own.
Just because you have coilovers, your car does not magically produce more traction.
You have to look at the complete setup.

If you are comparing a relatively soft standard setup, then a stiffer set of suspensions does help reduce the body roll, the dive under braking, and squat on acceleration.
However, that is only applicable if your tires can generate the traction that work with the stiffer suspension.

In the end, the only thing on the cars that actually touch the ground is the tires.
Therefore, all vehicle dynamic calculation start at the tires.

Just bolting on coilovers and keeping the OEM economy tires may not necessary yield better result.
Bolting on sticky semi-slick tires and keeping the OEM suspension may exaggerate the amount of body roll due to higher traction.
Having uprated suspension along with sticky tires will yield the best result, because everything work together in a package.

Jerrick

[bfrank1972]

I'm sure there are plenty of people who will have evidence of having faster lap times after installing coilovers on their cars. But... this question is kind of dumb...

1) "Coilovers", referring to aftermarket coilover suspension, can be all over the place. It's not something you go to walmart, find a box in automotive labeled "coilovers", that you install on your car. Lots of options, many of them cheap with inferior to stock damping.

2) So let's say you're spending some money on "decent" street/track coilovers like KW or Bilsteins. 99% of those people will lower their cars, requiring alignment mods. Aligment changes make a huuuuge difference in the handling characteristics of a car. So no-one is really just slapping on coilovers with nothing else changed.

3) Let's say you're spending some money on "really good" track coilovers, like higher end Motons. When not set up properly, they could handle worse than stock.

4) Let's say you're spending money on "good" street/track coilovers, set up by a good shop. Your car will definitely be more capable than stock --- oh wait! You have crap tires with soft sidewalls. Nope.

5) Let's say in addition to #4, you have good tires, nothing is wrong with your car. Your car will be able to handle turns faster. Yay. What about your brakes? Going faster = harder on brakes (and everything else).

All this assumes you can drive, and take advantage of the additional capability. A car is not just a plug and play thing, it's a collection of things that work in harmony - this is true whether you're talking about suspension, motor, design, etc.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Purist

Yeah sorry I know its a vague question. I'm considering my options to find a few tenths and just was wondering at club/amateur level if just a set of $2000 coilovers and alignment will have any benefits. Seems like unless you really know your shit, or can afford a lot of time with someone who does, its probably not high on the 'bang for buck' performance upgrade list.



And that is what I'm trying to avoid! If I dropped two grand and didn't go any faster I would be devastated.

The point is, you have to set the coilovers up properly, align the suspension properly, and then adjust for your driving style, equipment (like tires) and conditions (mostly the track itself).

If someone upgraded to ANY coilovers and didn't make sure that they matched all of the above parameters and went slower than with springs and stock shocks it doesn't make the hardware shit, it means they didn't ensure the above parameters were setup optimally. That's just as good as flushing money down the drain. This isn't the fault of the hardware it's the owner.

[Purist]

Originally Posted by MeisterR

Bolting on sticky semi-slick tires and keeping the OEM suspension may exaggerate the amount of body roll due to higher traction.
Having uprated suspension along with sticky tires will yield the best result, because everything work together in a package.

Jerrick

So if I'm running medium compound A050s on a hillclimb with some very tight corners, and getting noticeable body roll, then some stiffer springs and matched dampers might give me a bit more grip? I don't want to go so stiff that the car is ruined for 215 street tyres though.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Purist

So if I'm running medium compound A050s on a hillclimb with some very tight corners, and getting noticeable body roll, then some stiffer springs and matched dampers might give me a bit more grip? I don't want to go so stiff that the car is ruined for 215 street tyres though.

"stiffer" doesn't have to mean "too stiff".

I run Hankook Z214 medium 225s on 6k/6k springs on track. Is this optimum? No, but you know, because compromise. I was on 9k/10k but didn't like the ride so much on the road even with quality damping.

[Purist]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

"stiffer" doesn't have to mean "too stiff".

I run Hankook Z214 medium 225s on 6k/6k springs on track. Is this optimum? No, but you know, because compromise. I was on 9k/10k but didn't like the ride so much on the road even with quality damping.

How do you find the 6/6 on street tyres? You do any mountain roads?

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Purist

So if I'm running medium compound A050s on a hillclimb with some very tight corners, and getting noticeable body roll, then some stiffer springs and matched dampers might give me a bit more grip? I don't want to go so stiff that the car is ruined for 215 street tyres though.

You'll have to choose your compromise. It'll probably be somewhere in the middle. There may be other tricks available to help; remember body roll is low speed, bumps are high speed... So well valved shocks can make higher spring rates palatable.

C

[Icecreamtruk]

So I didnt see this thread before (somehow) but I can tell you about my experience with suspension tuning so far.

Before I start, I will have to add that "driver mod" is always on progress, so not everything can be attributed to the suspension itself.

So here goes, I wanted to change suspension because I found the car rolled too much. I was always on the bumpstops and I didnt really enjoyed the feeling. But I also didnt want to end with too much spring rate, because our local tracks are crap, some of them are more fitting to rally than circuit driving. I ended up with a 6k/8k front/rear setup and added a wing over previous year setup.

The main difference is that the car is easier to drive. Yup, you heard that right, the car is easier to drive, way easier. Responds to steering input faster/better so correcting oversteer mid-corner or corner entry became more natural, before on stock suspension, I had to be expecting it or the correcting came a bit too late and blew the corner.

The wing is probably responsible for this, but the tail of the car became really stable, stable enough for me to be able to go flatout after the apex on every corner. On those few ones where the rear might break traction I just steer to control the powerover but keep the gas pinned the whole time.

Laptimes now, like I said, this is all subjective as the driver (me) has gotten better, and there is also a wing (similar tires tho). I am around 1 to 2 seconds faster per minute on track, on average. On tracks with long high speed corners, I am wildly faster than before (5+ seconds). All of this comes down to me being more confident on what the car is doing and what I am doing.

I can post some last year, and this year videos to compare. I also went from barely grabbing 4th place on my class last year (local time attack series), being a good 1-2 seconds off leaders pace, to winning this year with a perfect record and outpacing the leader by a good 1-2 seconds (same guy, same setup as last year for him, his times were actually better than last years, it is wanst enough).

Hope this helps, this is all anecdotal, not pulling anything out of my a** (I hate that).

[Purist]

Thanks this is the sort of anecdote I was hoping for.

Here's a clip of one of my laps so people can get a better idea of the track. As you can see its almost all corners, but its also a bit rough so I don't want to go too stiff.

I'll talk to MCA, as I'll near their shop next week, by all accounts Josh is a no BS guru.

(Since getting an E85 tune, my new PB is 50.2. My nearest competitor is very experienced and runs a race-prepped MX-5. He does 48.5s.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Purist

Here's a clip of one of my laps so people can get a better idea of the track.

I'm thinking MCA XRs 5/5 and a set of those brackets that reduce anti squat might help me get power down in the tighter corners without being too stiff and skipping around on the rougher sections.

Seeing as how the track/road is pretty smooth, and you are basically running slicks I would say that 5/5 is too little spring. Also, rather than going for a setup that will give you understeer and installing brakets that will give you understeer under power, I would go for a setup that gives you oversteer, and balance it with a wing in the rear to add understeer as speed increases. That is just my take tho, consider being able to "put the power down" is not always the fastest way around a track, being able to quickly get around corners usually yields a better time (less time braking, higher exit speeds = higher average speeds = less time).

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Purist

How do you find the 6/6 on street tyres? You do any mountain roads?

My car was on 6k/6k springs with no swaybars.
I recently had the MCA Reds serviced. I had oem dampers back on the car for the first time in approximately 4&1/2 years for about 3 weeks. I am now on 7k/6k springs with oem swaybars at Josh's (from MCA) insistence. I am still yet to decide as to whether the antisways stay on or not. In MY opinion the MCAs are not much stiffer than oem. That is, they are a nice compromise.

I am not wanting to sound like an a$$hole but my answer to your question of "You do any mountain roads?" is totally irrelevant. We will have different opinions. The way I drive mountain roads is going to be different to the way you drive mountain roads. Are they even the same roads?

As a side note I thought the oems were pretty damn fine for oem.

(I am so wanting to get under 1.10 at Wakefield. I have a fresh set of tyres. I don't like my chances though. 1.10.69 has been my best for ages The difference in being able to say "Yeah, my best is 1.10.01" and "Yeah, my best is 1.09.99" is huge!)