FR-S vs BRZ

[go2brz]

Originally Posted by SPEEDGOD

So true, Subaru didn't even make it as the top 100 global brands in the world. Toyota made it to top 10.



That's why it was a partnership. Lets not forgot the design involves the exterior, interior, and specs. They could of chose any other car manufacturer (for the engine). But owning 20% of Subaru seals the deal.

Or they could of used Subaru as a manufacturer without giving them credit lol but that won't be financially sound.

Without Toyota, the BRZ would just look like a boxy out of date looking machine.

This car is a Subaru that could not be what it is without the help of Toyota. Yet without Subaru it could never have been brought to production. It's true that Toyota designed the car body and gave thier direct injection/port injection technology to Subaru (including the ECU system that controls it). To say that "they could choose any other car manufacturer (for the engine)" is a position that is impossible to back up. Are you saying that Toyota could have ( or even would have) done a deal with Porsche to make a sports car that Toyota could not have made otherwise? At least in this deal there is enough ambiguity to shade the lines of who is responsible for the best qualities of this car. Who else could Toyota have gone to and end up with a car with such a low center of gravity without a boxer engine? Toyota does own a non-controlling interest in Fuji Heavy Industries that they bought after Subaru bought out GM's investment (due to a disagreement about how to use Subaru's resources as an engineering company, as GM simply rebadged Subaru's with a Saab badge). The Subaru "Saabs" were good cars, but not what Saab owners were used to, and Subaru viewed it as a horrendous mistake that weakened their brand, which lead to them buying out GM's shares. So according to reported stories, Toyota only bought a small interest in Subaru to placate the Japanese government. Subaru is the smallest of all the world's "mass producing car companies" yet manage to have posted the most consistent and best sales percentage increase of any company since 2007. The Japanese government (just like the Italian government in the mid 90's saved Alfa Romeo from being bought buy Ford) encouraged Toyota to invest in Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru's parent company) to help protect them from being bought by the likes of Ford, or VW or even GM. In today's world of congomerated auto companies, Subaru stands alone. Even BMW now has the multi-expanded Mini line of cars to give them a full range of vehicle size and models to compete long term in the new International market of auto sales and manufacuring. Look closely and you will see that Subaru is the smallest "mass production" car company in the world. They have a very small but special "niche" manufacturing market. They have won world championships with just a small fraction of the money that Toyota has to spend. The bottom line is that Toyota "needed" Subaru to make this car. And Subaru needed the R&D resources that Toyota brings to the table and they both needed to share this car, so that neither company was "totally" on the hook for building a car that might not end up with enough sales to justify the cost. Instead it is a success for both companies, and both are glad to have in thier lineup. That much I am sure of.

[SPEEDGOD]

Originally Posted by go2brz

This car is a Subaru that could not be what it is without the help of Toyota. Yet without Subaru it could never have been brought to production. It's true that Toyota designed the car body and gave thier direct injection/port injection technology to Subaru (including the ECU system that controls it). To say that "they could choose any other car manufacturer (for the engine)" is a position that is impossible to back up. Are you saying that Toyota could have ( or even would have) done a deal with Porsche to make a sports car that Toyota could not have made otherwise? At least in this deal there is enough ambiguity to shade the lines of who is responsible for the best qualities of this car. Who else could Toyota have gone to and end up with a car with such a low center of gravity without a boxer engine? Toyota does own a non-controlling interest in Fuji Heavy Industries that they bought after Subaru bought out GM's investment (due to a disagreement about how to use Subaru's resources as an engineering company, as GM simply rebadged Subaru's with a Saab badge). The Subaru "Saabs" were good cars, but not what Saab owners were used to, and Subaru viewed it as a horrendous mistake that weakened their brand, which lead to them buying out GM's shares. So according to reported stories, Toyota only bought a small interest in Subaru to placate the Japanese government. Subaru is the smallest of all the world's "mass producing car companies" yet manage to have posted the most consistent and best sales percentage increase of any company since 2007. The Japanese government (just like the Italian government in the mid 90's saved Alfa Romeo from being bought buy Ford) encouraged Toyota to invest in Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru's parent company) to help protect them from being bought by the likes of Ford, or VW or even GM. In today's world of congomerated auto companies, Subaru stands alone. Even BMW now has the multi-expanded Mini line of cars to give them a full range of vehicle size and models to compete long term in the new International market of auto sales and manufacuring. Look closely and you will see that Subaru is the smallest "mass production" car company in the world. They have a very small but special "niche" manufacturing market. They have won world championships with just a small fraction of the money that Toyota has to spend. The bottom line is that Toyota "needed" Subaru to make this car. And Subaru needed the R&D resources that Toyota brings to the table and they both needed to share this car, so that neither company was "totally" on the hook for building a car that might not end up with enough sales to justify the cost. Instead it is a success for both companies, and both are glad to have in thier lineup. That much I am sure of.

Well said, that's one of the most non-bias analysis and insight I've seen. People just have to realize both companies work their asses off on this car and the result was beautiful. Both should deserve equal credit I think.

[PHAT]

What I got from this post:

FR-S Fan Boys: are pissed and using facts to persuade Subaru BRZ owners both deserve credit, they are even making up facts (ex: 20% ownership, made by Lexus, etc. LOL!)

Subaru Fan Boys: No facts can persuade them; they love Subaru and the brand, and discredit Toyota in the project and will ignore all real facts about the partnership (It's like how Apple fans will backup the iPhone even though there are better alternatives)

Conclusion:

Toyota GT86/SCION FR-S owners: Just love your rides. Subaru fans are limited. You don't need their approval. The facts speaks for itself. And the majority of the people don't care. All they see is an amazing looking ride that you purchase at a bargain. Back up your Scion brand. It's from Toyota, be proud. Don't fall into what other people say about it.

Subaru BRZ owners: Your ride is sick, period. Accept the GT86/SCION FR-S as an equal it's exactly the same car. It's a successful partnership which required both companies resources and expertise. Be humble, feel good about it that it's limited but don't be overly cocky, people don't like that. Don't tell a Toyota dude it's a Subaru or else they'll keep writing on this post lol

(I'm getting an FR-S or BRZ depending on which one is available on the lot, test drove both on regular roads, they both feel the same to me regardless of the suspension tuning, perhaps the difference is in the track)

[boead]

I read that the Toyota heads wanted to use a variant of the Lexus 2.5l used in the IS250 and that the designers were not pleased and wanted "a" Boxer.
From reading again, I got the impression that the redesign was extreme, that the differences between the two boxers are significant and that Toyota gave the design team strict rules to follow.

I think Toyota could have and would have built this car themselves if they needed to. They certainly could have!

[fatoni]

this video shows how i feel about this post better than i can
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6MMEsD_Avo"]GENDERS - YouTube[/ame]

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by PHAT

What I got from this post:

FR-S Fan Boys: are pissed and using facts to persuade Subaru BRZ owners both deserve credit, they are even making up facts (ex: 20% ownership, made by Lexus, etc. LOL!)

Subaru Fan Boys: No facts can persuade them; they love Subaru and the brand, and discredit Toyota in the project and will ignore all real facts about the partnership (It's like how Apple fans will backup the iPhone even though there are better alternatives)

Conclusion:

Toyota GT86/SCION FR-S owners: Just love your rides. Subaru fans are limited. You don't need their approval. The facts speaks for itself. And the majority of the people don't care. All they see is an amazing looking ride that you purchase at a bargain. Back up your Scion brand. It's from Toyota, be proud. Don't fall into what other people say about it.

Subaru BRZ owners: Your ride is sick, period. Accept the GT86/SCION FR-S as an equal it's exactly the same car. It's a successful partnership which required both companies resources and expertise. Be humble, feel good about it that it's limited but don't be overly cocky, people don't like that. Don't tell a Toyota dude it's a Subaru or else they'll keep writing on this post lol

(I'm getting an FR-S or BRZ depending on which one is available on the lot, test drove both on regular roads, they both feel the same to me regardless of the suspension tuning, perhaps the difference is in the track)

Wrong, I own the BRZ and I don't discredit Toyota at all. Are we jumping 4% with each post? Toyota's stock in FHI is 16% not 20.

[Kelbyat07]

I just think we Toyobaru should stick together lol

[ktulu7]

How much does it actually cost to get a better HU in the FR-S instead of the stupid iPhone-only BeSpoke system? How much would push-button start cost? I really want a BRZ, but need to wait another month or two before I can even consider myself ready to toss down the money, but it looks like that's past the order cutoff. Heck, even if I do order one, it could be a LONG time before I get it. Is it worth it to just say "screw it" and buy an FR-S instead? I DO at least love the hot lava color... Also, how easy is it to order an FR-S right now?

[Accurate Race Shop]

Originally Posted by ktulu7

How much does it actually cost to get a better HU in the FR-S instead of the stupid iPhone-only BeSpoke system? How much would push-button start cost? I really want a BRZ, but need to wait another month or two before I can even consider myself ready to toss down the money, but it looks like that's past the order cutoff. Heck, even if I do order one, it could be a LONG time before I get it. Is it worth it to just say "screw it" and buy an FR-S instead? I DO at least love the hot lava color... Also, how easy is it to order an FR-S right now?

As far as the options go you just have to decided which ones are important to you. I hate touch screen radios and I saw an upside down brz that's push start failed and they couldn't cut off the motor so they stalled it out using the break and the clutch (video was taken down I tried to find it.) But if they are important to you look on Ebay or ask a Subaru dealer how much the parts are. Besides the options they are the same performance wise the report that said the FR-S is faster was by 1/10th of a second and is a big who cares that is way more likely the driver than the car. After market parts are all over and it seems you can do whatever you want to one. The price difference between a limited brz and an FR-S is enough to buy the push start a new radio and hid/LED lights with cash to spare. If you want all that under warranty and don't want to deal with the hassle of installing it just fork over the extra cash. As far as wait times go it should be no more than a week for an FR-S in the color you want and the brz varies by location. Hope this helps you decide but the choice is yours don't buy the one you really don't want because someone on the internet told you it was better.

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[ktulu7]

I'm just thinking some of the nifty interior stuff that came with the BRZ may not be quite as big of a deal anymore to me. I'm starting to think about just getting the cheaper FR-S in the color I prefer, and then having fun adding things to it over time... I just wonder how much some of the add-ons will cost. I'll probably head to the Scion dealership tomorrow to find out about some of that, as they have a TON of things you can get for your FR-S there.

[PHAT]

Originally Posted by boead

I think Toyota could have and would have built this car themselves if they needed to. They certainly could have!

I definitely think Toyota could of built the car by themselves just like Subaru could too. The result may be better or worst but it would be a non-economical and unsound business decision to go solo on a project this "big". It's common practice in business to use existing resources a company has, especially to bring down the cost. The collaboration resulted in a car that cost under $30K. If they designed and manufactured independently it'll cost $500,000-Millions and I wouldn't be able to afford it lol

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Wrong, I own the BRZ and I don't discredit Toyota at all. Are we jumping 4% with each post? Toyota's stock in FHI is 16% not 20.

If you read my post again I was mocking whoever said 20% (perhaps the person was rounding it up lol? like people in Ontario with the penny) just like I was mocking Subaru drivers who ignore facts. Most likely I wasn't referring to you (only you would know) but rather others in this post and the reason Toyota GT86/Scion FR-S drivers are pissed. It's known ego issue. I'm sure you know.

[boead]

Originally Posted by PHAT

I definitely think Toyota could of built the car by themselves just like Subaru could too. The result may be better or worst but it would be a non-economical and smart business decision to go solo on a project this "big". It's common practice in business to use existing resources a company has, especially to bring down the cost. The collaboration resulted in a car that cost under $30K. If they designed and manufactured independently it'll cost $500,000-Millions and I wouldn't be able to afford it lol

From reading some seems like it was entirely a Toyota concept and execution. Subaru's first attempt, from Toyotas request, was a disaster in that it was nothing Toyota wanted or had in mind.

You're being a bit overzealous. Toyota could have easily funded and afforded this model themselves. It looks as though the support from Toyota board members was absent and that this was a way to spearhead it into production and lower the financial and reputational risks. In a nut-shell.
I seriously doubt that the "collaboration" lead to a car that cost under $30K, if anything it likely increased some costs but lowered each companies investment and associated risks besides increasing dealership distribution channels to a wider range of demographics.

That's how I understood most of the history.

[PHAT]

Originally Posted by boead

From reading some seems like it was entirely a Toyota concept and execution. Subaru's first attempt, from Toyotas request, was a disaster in that it was nothing Toyota wanted or had in mind.

You're being a bit overzealous. Toyota could have easily funded and afforded this model themselves. It looks as though the support from Toyota board members was absent and that this was a way to spearhead it into production and lower the financial and reputational risks. In a nut-shell.
I seriously doubt that the "collaboration" lead to a car that cost under $30K, if anything it likely increased some costs but lowered each companies investment and associated risks besides increasing dealership distribution channels to a wider range of demographics.

That's how I understood most of the history.

LoL What are you talking about? The collaboration did result in a car that cost less then $30K!

I agree Toyota could of afford this project but it would be a big risk. Toyota is not going to develop their own engine and build a factory just for this car. If they do, this car is going to cost more then most of us can afford lol

Yes it wasn't "designed by committee" but the numbers are still taken care by HQ. It's just a marketing scheme that people bought into. There are always people pulling strings upstairs lol

[boead]

Originally Posted by PHAT

LoL What are you talking about? The collaboration did result in a car that cost less then $30K!

I agree Toyota could of afford this project but it would be a big risk. Toyota is not going to develop their own engine and build a factory just for this car. If they do, this car is going to cost more then most of us can afford lol

Yes it wasn't "designed by committee" but the numbers are still taken care by HQ. It's just a marketing scheme that people bought into. There are always people pulling strings upstairs lol

:-/ you must be young. I have to keep reminding myself of that on this forum.