FEEDBACK WANTED - What do you look for in a coilover?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Hey all!

RCE wants your feedback on what you look for in a coilover for your BRZ. We want to know what kinds of features are important to you and what features you honestly don’t care about.

And no, we don’t have anything new in the works right now…we just want to hear from everyone.

1. Monotube or Twintube – Advantages and disadvantages to both, but most prefer monotube shocks for serious track work. Major exceptions exist (Ohlins use twintubes as their motorsport shocks, JRZ has good twintubes, we think we make some nice twintubes with KW and they also have a great hybrid Clubsport shock). How important is the shock’s construction when you’re purchasing a coilover? Or do you just want a good shock and you’re not worried about whether it’s a twintube or monotube?


2. Camber plates – Do you prefer having camber plates standard or do you like having the option of either sourcing your own camber plates or using stock top mounts for less NVH?


3. Damper adjustment – Different users have different needs…but how important is damper adjustment to you? Is a non-adjustable off the table? Is a 2 way useful or overkill? Is a single adjustable the sweet spot?


4. Upgradeablity – The ability to send in your coilovers and upgrade them from non-adjustable, to single adjustables, or doubles, or triples…is kinda cool. People needs and abilities can change in a year so having the option to upgrade instead of start over could be useful. Sometimes it doesn’t work out to be as cost effective as people hope but it’s still an intriguing idea. Would this type of upgradeability a major selling point for you?


5. Ride height adjustability – A lot of people insist on separate ride height and preload adjustability. It doesn’t always mean more travel (and IMO usually means less) but it usually does give a little flexibility especially when going real low. Is this a must have for you?


6. Materials/construction – How important is rust resistance and long term durability?


7. Warranty – Is a warranty a major concern when purchasing a set of coilovers?


8. Any other features that are very important to you?



Thanks for the feedback y'all! We love what we do and we'll always strive to provide you with the best suspension parts and guidance for your BRZ/FRS/GT86!

- Andrew

[churchx]

1. If it performs good, who cares how it's designed?
2. Stock topmounts, if it's for dual-use car. But camber is needed, so other means to get it (eg. preslotted, preferably with inserts for secure mount and ability to use full-strength stock bolts). Another way - normal round holes, but drilled at position to have camber at -1.5 instead of 0, so that with single set of cambolts it can be changed 0-3.
3. If adjustable, nice to have some suggested pretested settings for some common setups/uses as starting points in instructions. My own preference would be unadjustable (it also would mean to not be able to adjust them to worse . I drive too bad/inconsistent to be able use my own laptimes if changes are for good or worse). But as i by myself wouldn't be the only target buyer, that may mean that single chosen compromise may not fit my needs/wishes .
4. But if it's something without local shop for maintenance but involves overseas shipping, not much to gain from upgradeability. Regarding upgradeability/serviceability/revalving ability .. i kind of liked Flex Z approach of "replacement cartridges" (especially if it lets keep things quality yet even cheaper then market average).
5. For me stock-hight is must-have. Would be nice to not have that and also shock travel be limited just to enable extreme lowering. But there might be lot of those wishing for ability to lower much. Who knows, maybe way more among potential buyers then ones like me .
6. Enough. Salt in winter. Car used all year round. No wish to mount other coilovers or return to stock for winter season.
7. If there is no lemon during initial purchase, not too much. But as coilovers are wear item, nice to have cheaper/simpler ways to have them restored to their like new performance (again thinking of Flex Z ).
EDIT
8. If it's something made by vendor having dealerships/shops world wide or located in Europe, wouldn't 7./4. be solveable in some way if you would not just source something to be made by your specs, but also would permit maintenance by them so for local elsewhere shops or vendor itself to be usable for those needs to simplify/quicken/cheapen shipping part to perform the job?

[Icecreamtruk]

1. Monotube or Twintube : doesnt matter, I just want a good shock.

2. Camber plates : I would prefer camber plates, saves me the trouble of findind compatible ones that are good and dont cost an arm and a leg.

3. Damper adjustment: single with rebound only or double adjustable. Singles with combined ajustments never work well, you either have too little rebound with good compression, or too much compression with good enough rebound (cant get both right most of the times, its always a compromise, doesnt have to be).

4. Upgradeablity: minor but would give me a small plus if I can upgrade it. Like singles to doubles, or doubles to 4 ways with externals for example.

5. Ride height adjustability: important, independant ride heigh, even if it results in less travel.

6. Materials/construction: important, specially rust (canadian climate...)

7. Warranty: not major, just a few months to be able to return anything that is a manufacturing defect (broken ajuster, bad ball joint, etc).

8. Any other features that are very important to you? The most important feature of all to me, being able to choose your own spring rate (and ideally spring brand as well). Many people rave about how good X or Y shocks are and how they are going to make your car into a monster cornering machine, but very few people realise that springs are as important (if not more) than shocks to the behaivor of the car. Most coilovers on the marked right now cater to the "general HPDE guy" that goes once or twice a year to the track and cant control oversteer at all, and just promote understeer on their setups to inspire driver confidence. Once you are past that, you'd wish you could swap your spring rates and end up chasing "patch" solutions (sway bars, using stupidly high compression/rebound settings, using aero to balance mechanical grip, among other things).

[cjd]

1. mono/twin: Not a particular consideration for me - I assume if I'm buying a setup for track use from a reputable company, they're actually suited for track use and will hold up, etc.

2. camber plates: I'd use if they came with, probably. Have done. I might opt for aftermarket if they let me get more caster or have a little more available stroke for a given ride height. I prefer the non-included plates I'm now using to the ones that were included with my old setup, but it's not a huge thing. Even better if the included setup is already optimizing available setting range for caster/camber and available stroke.

3. adjustment: If perfectly set up, I'd be fine with no adjustment; I might like rebound adjustment alone to tweak things in the rain (I often am faster with a couple clicks of rear rebound taken out...) I got what I got to learn more... but I'd be just as happy buying into a system perfectly optimized for my use case. Also have to admit I like being able to soften things up for the drive home - roads in the city are pretty bad, and this really does help make it a little less uncomfortable in the worst moments. I'm pretty good about not tweaking myself into a dark corner every event - many times I don't even think about making a setup change beyond tire pressure.

4. upgrade: If I actually learned what changes I might want for what behavior difference, I might be able to work an upgrade process to my benefit. That'd be pretty nice. Might also be nice to bring a little more range to a setup at any given spring rate (I can't go a whole lot softer up front on mine at the moment, for example...)

5. ride height: I'd rather maintain travel, and I'm not sure how much realistic ride height range is actually beneficial; If it's not going to wander over time with use, I might opt for separate ride height adjustment, but it's low on the list these days.

6. materials: While I don't drive in the winter, sometimes I wish all the parts could handle the salt better than they do, because I really don't like driving my wife's car for the family gatherings during the holidays... Also there has been the occasional snow storm early/late in the season, so I still do end up with a little bit of salt exposure...

7. Warranty: manufacture process or materials defects, please... and good customer service. If I had too short a time limit I'd be worried about acquiring parts over the winter for spring install, because I could be out of time based on purchase date... and that's typically what I do. That said, I would expect time limits on any warranty - just... enough time to know I don't have to immediately install and test just in case...

8. anything else: a couple thoughts

spring rates, yes! I'd be tempted to pay for suspension as a service... match spring rates, damping, swaybars, etc. to my use - vehicle weight, alignment, tires, aero, etc. Standard and available spring sizes! Same size front and rear is a bonus if I need to go up/down all around but could maybe put what had been rear springs up front...

Easy to reach adjustment! I'm not super fond of the need to dig out a hex wrench to adjust rebound. The contortions I sometimes need to adjust compression also kinda sucks, especially in the rain.

Inconspicuous(ish) - too flashy might draw attention (as if my brakes don't for anyone actually paying attention...) but really like to keep a low profile driving around town and particular parking here or there and not at home.

That reminds me, I need to get some springs and related info... sometime before spring.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Hey all!

RCE wants your feedback on what you look for in a coilover for your BRZ. We want to know what kinds of features are important to you and what features you honestly don’t care about.

And no, we don’t have anything new in the works right now…we just want to hear from everyone. ...

...Thanks for the feedback y'all! We love what we do and we'll always strive to provide you with the best suspension parts and guidance for your BRZ/FRS/GT86!

- Andrew

Andrew, you guys are the best. Here's what I would buy from you in a heartbeat.

Option A - Perfect DD setup that defeats the wheel gap without changing the OEM suspension geometry much.

A street comfortable (matched to 300TW UHP tires) non-adjustable damping shock/spring combo that lowered the car 3/8" to .5" at the camber plate (like your previous lowering camber plates in the front, and then a matched lowering top mount in the rear) and another .5" in the spring or body of the shock (for a total ride height reduction of ~ "1, that improved handling and performance to the same degree as your RaceComp Yellow but with a valving matched shock. This could have a fixed ride height (for durability and reduced complexity) and adjustable lowering camber plate. The spring diameter and perch should be less than the current OEM to facilitate wider wheel/tire combos. For these progressive springs would suffice.

Option B - Weekend warrior setup with intermediate skill level setting up their suspension.
I would also like exactly the same thing as above but with 1 or 2 way adjustable damping andd springs and shocks matched to 200TW (or stickier) tires and with adjustable ride height. For these linear rate springs are preferred. You may have already made this with your incredible RCE Tarmac 2s.

1. Monotube or Twintube – Doesn't matter just so long as it's rebuildable and accomplishes the above goals.


2. Camber plates – Option to use the OEM top mounts would be nice for "Option A" above. Unnecessary for Option B above.


3. Damper adjustment – Non adjustable for Option A (above), 1 way adjustable for Option B (above).


4. Upgradeablity – No, adds cost and complexity. People who mostly DD (which are most people buying this car) and Weekend Warriors needs facilitate a completely new setup if they're going for maximum comfort, looks, and increased performance vs. the ability to adjust their own suspension in-between sessions or competitive auto-X work.


5. Ride height adjustability – For Option A(above) no adjustability is a plus as it provides more travel, less complexity and maintenance. For Option B (above), it's a must.


6. Materials/construction – Rust resistance isn't an issue in the southwest and Southern California. Everyplace else, its needed. Might as well add it for everyone.


7. Warranty – Warranties matter. I'd ask for 2-3 years for both of the above options.


8. Any other features that are very important to you? - They should have quality hardware. (especially at adjustment and points of failure) that typically cause problems (including unwanted noises like clunking.)

They should look good. So a static color body (silver, black) with springs that come in various colors could actually be a selling point (hey, car culture matters.)

They should come with excellent documentation. Not even just good, but excellent. Pictures, diagrams, charts etc. Hire a technical writer and/or illustrator to make this the best in industry. Include detailed information about setup, adjustment, a FAQ, and support info. Also the packaging matters, so consider both transit safety and OOBE. This is one of the little things that make a big difference.

That's about all I can think of for now. Thanks so much Andy.

[Captain Snooze]

Penske damping at Flex Z price.

[nikitopo]

1. Monotube or Twintube – A monotube design is a better option for me.

2. Camber plates – Camber plates should be offered as an option.

3. Damper adjustment – A single adjustable option is enough.

4. Upgradeablity – I'm not interested on this.

5. Ride height adjustability – Ride height together with preload adjustability is fine.

6. Materials/construction – It would be nice if they are lighter than stock dampers.

7. Warranty – They should definitely have a warranty. Maybe for a year.


8. Inverted design in front and if possible also at the rear.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Thanks so much guys! Keep it coming!

- Andrew

[Stang70Fastback]

I've only ever owned one set of aftermarket coilovers in my life, and it's the set of KW V3s on my car currently. A lot of my responses will be similar to the responses you've already received, so instead, I'll rattle off a list of tweaks I would make if I was in charge of making a 2nd Generation V3.

- Dedicated adjustment knobs for rebound, rather than one adjustment "key" that slots into a little hex head. It's a real PITA to get that thing into the rear adjustment knobs while leaning into the trunk, lifting up the side liner flaps, and trying not to fumble and drop it. The front adjustment slots tend to fill with sediment, so I found two plastic caps that I keep over them when I'm not making adjustments. Fixed adjustment knobs at all four corners would be nice; even if it was something you install AFTER inserting the coilover through the top hat and tightening it.

- I *hate* the super-miniature hex key bolt thing that KW uses to secure the collar at the height you want. There must be a reason they did that as opposed to using two locking collars, but I have no idea what that reason is, and this design seems highly inferior. It's super tiny and you'll strip it if you over-tighten it, not to manage damaging the threads on the coilover body, but if you don't tighten it enough it backs out and comes loose. Sure, you could use Loctite, but you could also just have two collars and that would be easier, no?

- A more defined click between each adjustment setting, and a more defined bump stop at each extreme, that doesn't feel mushy and make me feel like I'm damaging the valve every time I max the adjustment knob out in either direction. Also, OCD me hates that they max out halfway past a "click" position. So does 8 clicks from full stiff include that first click? Or would that click be full stiff, since I never got another click past it? A silly thing, but ideally a design that has the knob stop turning precisely AT a click would be nice.

- For winter folk, such as myself, I'd like to see a coilover design that doesn't have coilover covers seeming like an afterthought. I bought ISC coilover covers for my V3s, and they work well, but I had to use zip ties to properly seal them. I'd like to see some sort of integration of the cover into the coilover to properly seal them against winter use, and to make it easier to remove them and inspect them. Basically, a coilover that was designed from the start to properly integrate a cover that would seal properly.

- Also a winter point, it bugs me that the bottom adjustment knobs are exposed to the elements. After one winter, they work fine, and maybe they'll continue to work fine, but it would be easy to have rubber covers I could slip on (similar to the slip-on rubber foot at the bottom of a cane, or on the bottoms of the legs of cheap folding chairs) that I could slide over the bottom of the coilover to protect those adjustment points in the winter.

- Subtle colors. I don't like showing off my coilovers. With my black coilover covers, that isn't an issue, but if I didn't have those, I still wouldn't be a fan of the bright yellow springs.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Hey all!

RCE wants your feedback on what you look for in a coilover for your BRZ. We want to know what kinds of features are important to you and what features you honestly don’t care about.

And no, we don’t have anything new in the works right now…we just want to hear from everyone.

1. Monotube or Twintube – Advantages and disadvantages to both, but most prefer monotube shocks for serious track work. Major exceptions exist (Ohlins use twintubes as their motorsport shocks, JRZ has good twintubes, we think we make some nice twintubes with KW and they also have a great hybrid Clubsport shock). How important is the shock’s construction when you’re purchasing a coilover? Or do you just want a good shock and you’re not worried about whether it’s a twintube or monotube?

I just want a good shock, mostly since I haven't looked into the advantages/disadvantages of both enough to wisely choose lol


2. Camber plates – Do you prefer having camber plates standard or do you like having the option of either sourcing your own camber plates or using stock top mounts for less NVH?

Have camber plates as an option to come installed but also sets to reuse factory top hats


3. Damper adjustment – Different users have different needs…but how important is damper adjustment to you? Is a non-adjustable off the table? Is a 2 way useful or overkill? Is a single adjustable the sweet spot?

1 or 2 way adjustment. While many will never touch the adjustment after it is dialed in at least we can tweak it a little before forgetting about it. What may be too bouncy for one might be perfect for DD for another, etc making no adjustment a turn off. 2 way adjustment with proper support like you guys give would be the answer for track guys or even dual purpose cars to get the best of both worlds daily an then at the track. With no experience with 2 way yet but research for future purchases, it seems like 2 way with good valuing would be the best way to get more compliance out of a more track oriented suspension on the street which is why I like the idea


4. Upgradeablity – The ability to send in your coilovers and upgrade them from non-adjustable, to single adjustables, or doubles, or triples…is kinda cool. People needs and abilities can change in a year so having the option to upgrade instead of start over could be useful. Sometimes it doesn’t work out to be as cost effective as people hope but it’s still an intriguing idea. Would this type of upgradeability a major selling point for you?

If it was cost effective this would be great. you could start with a 1 way and then as you get more serious 2 way and a rebuild are what it takes instead of finding a new coil and needing to sell what I have. And by cost effective I mean no more expensive or very close in cost for original upgrade vs. buying higher end set outright. That may be hard since a revolve and new springs would be done in most cases though I imagine.


5. Ride height adjustability – A lot of people insist on separate ride height and preload adjustability. It doesn’t always mean more travel (and IMO usually means less) but it usually does give a little flexibility especially when going real low. Is this a must have for you?

Whatever give me more travel at a functional lowered height (.75" to 1.25" drop on the twins for example)


6. Materials/construction – How important is rust resistance and long term durability?

Very important. I don't want to have to buy new coils in 7 years cuz it ate itself lol (yes I know I live in CA but coils seizing is common enough over time)


7. Warranty – Is a warranty a major concern when purchasing a set of coilovers?

Yes


8. Any other features that are very important to you?

Slotted strut holes for camber adjustment. Damping adjustment knobs at each corner. Detailed instructions on install, height adjustment, damping settings, etc. When I installed my ASTs recently it was the first set that height and preload were separate and it reused OEM top hats so it was interesting to figure out. Thankfully the vendor has awesome support but words make it harder, pictures would have eliminated a lot of questions I had about if I had it right or not.



Thanks for the feedback y'all! We love what we do and we'll always strive to provide you with the best suspension parts and guidance for your BRZ/FRS/GT86!

- Andrew

Answers in bold above

[strat61caster]

Suspension setup is tough, there's rarely that magic button awesome setup at any price point, it usually takes years to develop what's 'right' for a chassis.

1. Great Mono > Great twin > ok Mono > ok twin > everything else
I would get a twin if it lived up to the hype and it didn't look like there were any viable Monotubes that met all my other criteria. Inverted struts are a plus as well since it doesn't fit anywhere else. I finally looked at how KW does their double adjustables last week and it makes perfect sense why that works out affordably compared to the more complicated needs of a monotube.

I'm not a fan of remote reservoirs, as below if everything is in harmony they don't add any performance, only cost, complexity, and failure points. A compression adjustment via jacking up the gas pressure doesn't make too much sense to me.

2. Depends on the quality of the camber plate and the available aftermarket options. For instance, I'd rather no camber plate than the ones that come on the BC variants, aftermarket has a better product and I'd likely replace them anyway, this probably hurt the Ohlins on this platform early on as I recall not many people were happy with them but they cost $800+ more to get the top hats. On the flipside some chassis are starved for camber adjustment options, (currently developing an F56 and options are very limited and underwhelming)

At least on this car (and the Mini) I saw no downsides to camber plates over OE top hats when it came to NVH once everything was functioning properly.

3. I think that adjustable isn't a requirement, nice, but not a requirement. If the system works in harmony you shouldn't really need to tweak them. Consistent adjustments are a must but at this point I'm wary about most adjustments (both how important they are and how consistent they are).

4. Servicing and rebuild/revalve is a high priority for me. I'd be fine having to buy a different set if I wanted to add or subtract adjustability knowing that the core of the damper will be able to be used for a long time. On principle throwing out the dampers instead of having them rebuilt is a downside.

5. I don't like separate ride height and preload. If I had a set like that I'm pretty sure I'd just figure out the bump/droop travel I wanted (likely setting it to max bump for an 86) and then I'd screw with the spring perch for final height anyway. Edit: fixed height perches aren't problematic to me depending on what I'm trying to do

6. As above long term durability is a quality I'm willing to pay extra (or sacrifice features) for, but due to my climate it is not currently a concern, infrequent maintenance and cleaning should be enough to prevent them from turning into the horror stories you see online every once in awhile.

7. At this point I assume that most warranties aren't worth shit. Manufacturers seem to try and blame the user at almost every turn to get out of losing any money.

8. Transparency in design. What do the dyno plots look like and why? How were the springs chosen and matched to the plots? What kind of dynamics are expected? What other setup changes are suggested to take advantage of the coilovers? (alignment, geometry, sway bars, specific bushings, tires, etc.) This stuff isn't rocket science, especially at the bottom half of the price spectrum (with $10k+ Penske's being at the top). Sure, you gotta have a certain amount of kid gloves on when you put a product out for all to see, but if the setup doesn't make sense to me or I'm not confident it will perform what I want it to perform I'm going to pass right over it.

Most coilovers barely publish spring rates and fill their product listings with meaningless "precise handling! reduced body roll! comfortable yet sporty! XXX-way adjustments!"

tl;dr rebuildable/revalvable, sensible spring rates, adequate travel, adequate alignment, trustworthy damping

Suspension setup is hard, you can't control the end user, you sell them a 'race setup' with crazy stiff springs and they slam the car to the ground, slap on 21" steam rollers with 500TW all-seasons, no alignment, and then complain the handling sucks, not your fault, nothing you could do. I understand a certain level of conservatism in what's listed for sale to the public, gotta dig for the good stuff.



Edit: Oh and update the damn website when things change.

[Pat]

I'm on board with just about everything strat61caster said. I'm really getting frustrated trying to come up with a good solution to my needs. Expect a call from me soon.

1. Monotube or Twintube? If it works, I don't care much. That said, it seems to me monos tend to work better than twins, ceteris paribus.

2. Camber plates? Absolutely necessary for this platform for any kind of performance driving. The more options the better.

3. Damper adjustment? Ideally it would be single adjustable, but adjustment is not a requirement.

4. Upgradeablity? Not a big deal to me.

5. Ride height adjustability? It's nice to have, but not mandatory. More important than upgradeability, though.

6. Materials/construction? Important. Quality materials matter. I expect long life with no headaches.

7. Warranty? As long as the warranty actually means something, that counts for a lot with me.

8. Any other features that are very important to you? For this platform I want something that offers good rear travel. Maybe that requires rear tophats, though, which would be sold separately from the coilovers.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Pat

I'm on board with just about everything strat61caster said. I'm really getting frustrated trying to come up with a good solution to my needs. Expect a call from me soon.

1. Monotube or Twintube? If it works, I don't care much. That said, it seems to me monos tend to work better than twins, ceteris paribus.

2. Camber plates? Absolutely necessary for this platform for any kind of performance driving. The more options the better.

3. Damper adjustment? Ideally it would be single adjustable, but adjustment is not a requirement.

4. Upgradeablity? Not a big deal to me.

5. Ride height adjustability? It's nice to have, but not mandatory. More important than upgradeability, though.

6. Materials/construction? Important. Quality materials matter. I expect long life with no headaches.

7. Warranty? As long as the warranty actually means something, that counts for a lot with me.

8. Any other features that are very important to you? For this platform I want something that offers good rear travel. Maybe that requires rear tophats, though, which would be sold separately from the coilovers.

I'll PM you tomorrow.

- Andrew

[rcm47]

Still waiting on your gtworx/bilstein coilovers for this platform.