removable roll bars/cages

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

Luckily for me I sit about 2 inches from the top of the hoop. Its a boss frog double hoop. Check out the hard dog roll bar website. I have yet to see or hear of a roll bar in a miata killing a person. Im sure it has happened but compare that to the people it saves or the people that had it and wrecked but had no issues and I thi'm good.

i have yet to see a roll bar save someones life. this kind of anecdotal evidence isnt nearly enough data to come to any conclusion. all we can do is make assumptions based on the premise. i assume more people are rear ended than roll over. with that assumption, i can say that roll bars are likely dangerous. keep in mind this is without a seat, 5 pt harness, helmet, and hans

Originally Posted by ZDan

I have roll bars in my street cars because they are required for the classes I am in with the club I track with.

The idea that a roll bar in a street car is guaranteed to kill you in street usage is, IMO, as stupid as the idea that a roll bar at the track for modified cars will necessarily make you safer.

For street/track cars, whether or not you have a roll bar is often dicatated by track or sanctioning body rules.

I think it's a bit ridiculous to categorically state "roll bars are never a good idea for a street car. not ever".

If anyone has statistics of drivers being brain-damaged or killed by head injuries due to roll bars in street cars, I'd love to see them.

the idea that a rollbar is guaranteed to kill you is stupid but thats not what im saying. more people die on public roads than race courses so im just playing the odds. maybe a bit exreme of a statement ill admit that. but arguing that statement is kind of like saying that gambling is a good way to make money. on the street a rollbar increases your chance of injury and increases the severity. a rollbar doesnt protect you from a roll over with a 3pt harness

[NastyNate]

So show me imperical evidence that proves your point. Until then it's my conjecture against yours... And I trust my senses more than a keyboard kommando.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

So show me imperical evidence that proves your point. Until then it's my conjecture against yours... And I trust my senses more than a keyboard kommando.

there isnt enough empirical data otherwise we wouldnt be in a debate or whatever this is. my conjecture is based off of reasoning not senses. what is true is that a rollbar is a part of a safety system and without the other parts, is not likely to perform its task. there is a reason that with a rollbar you need a harness. what good does a rollbar do if the seatbelt doesnt keep your head under the bar?

[NastyNate]

Like I said, show me proof. Not enough means there is some which I would like to see. You assume that everyone is too close to the rollbar but everyone has different torso length, leg length, etc which all play into being too close to a rollbar.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

Like I said, show me proof. Not enough means there is some which I would like to see. You assume that everyone is too close to the rollbar but everyone has different torso length, leg length, etc which all play into being too close to a rollbar.

there is raw data but i dont have the time or resources to look trhough that. im not assuming anything about anyones height ecxept that when you stand them on their head, their head is 0" off the ground. in a roll, your head is only saved by a rollbar if your seatbelt can keep you on the seat which a 3 pt doesnt do.

once you consider that the a pillars on na or nb miatas arent structural then you will see that any normal sized human will have their head above the line between the roll bar and the hood of the car which is the next highest structural point

[NastyNate]

I dont want you to sift through the facts. I will gladly do it. I just want to know where to view said facts.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

I dont want you to sift through the facts. I will gladly do it. I just want to know where to view said facts.

police reports are probably where i would start when looking for lethal car crashes and rollovers

[NastyNate]

So please show me. I even ran 'miata roll bar fatality' through google snd got nothing.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

So please show me. I even ran 'miata roll bar fatality' through google snd got nothing.

in order for something like that to be googleable some one would have had to collect the data.

[NastyNate]

Even still, if this were a regulat occurance I'd wager there would be plenty of people discussing it, even on a forum level...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

...

looking up raw data isnt like a research paper in grade school. we cant just google stuff that isnt part of our collective knowledge. i work in radiation therapy and i would say that about half of the patients are in clinical trials. its alot of real work. google =/= research. besides i think its time you do what move on in the car game, everyone who ever gets a miata ends up with an elise and then we wouldnt even need to have this talk. thats what i plan

[delongedoug]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i simply assumed that this was in regards to a multipurpose car. otherwise why would you ever need anything removable as far as the roll bar/cage is concerned? and yes that part about the roll bar looks to be about convertibles since it said that all you need is a helmet unless you have a convertible, then you need a rollbar.

Then it's a reading comprehension problem which I cannot help you with.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by delongedoug

Then it's a reading comprehension problem which I cannot help you with.

yeah i must have been confused when they said, "All you need to run a HPDE event is your car (in good condition) and a helmet. In a convertible, you will also need to have a roll bar. This roll bar..." for a minute i thought they meant, "All you need to run a HPDE event is your car (in good condition) and a helmet. In a convertible, you will also need to have a roll bar. This roll bar..." my mistake

[NastyNate]

I'd love an elise but wont for one reason: Im not paying that much for a car to be powered by a celica motor. Besides, when the miata is paid for it will be a full track car. Moving on I will go up. M3, gtr, maybe corvette, or a v8 genesis. Though I really want a new style supra if it ever vaporizes. Glad I dont have kids so it makes the choice easier and harder.