building a race car, damn i am confused, help!

[puma]

thanks, still gathering info at this point, i'll let you know when i am ready.

[CSG Mike]

Engine: We will need to ad either a supercharger or a turbo, i will need to be able to get 250 whp and 300whp (depending on which serie i race in). what would you do? turbo or supercharger with two pulleys? (250 whp on 94 octane and 300 on race gas)

We use a Jackson Racing Supercharger. It'll easily get you to that power level on race gas and no cats, without blowing other components up; the torque output remains low, so you won't be destroying your transmission. Axles can be preserved by smooth shifting, but if you're shifting quickly on track, you'll probably want to upgrade.

Radiator: Robispec seemed to be offering one that included an oil cooler, it seems to be hell buying from him, any other option? I guess i will need to buy like a Koyo and an oïl cooler seperatly

Even at 300whp, you shouldn't be overheating, or even be coming close. The stock layout is a cross flow, and is complete overkill. A vented hood and a powerful fan should be all you need, even at 300whp. You do need an engine oil cooler, however. With the Supercharger mentioned above, there's a modular engine oil cooler (air-oil) that tucks in between the FMIC and AC Concenser (if you keep that).

Exhaust: it will be straight or with a small muffler for the lapping days to pratice, not much of a concern here except headers maybe, what is the best option?

Cheapest is just a custom fabbed straight pipe from the header back. The Tomei is the only common titanium option, and is surprisingly affordable, although I'd consider a Ti exhaust for racing a consumable.

Coilover; thinking about MCS so far, all the coilovers i see are all street coilovers, i would like a remote canister. We have JRZ 3way at the moment but don't want to go so expensive for our next car. Seen the KW and the Eibach but they all have like less than 400# spring rate, we are racing with 750 front and 2000 rear at the moment...

I prefer JRZ as well, but if you have a great relationship with MCS, that may be worth more than a proven damper on this platform.

LSD, some seem to say the stock one is fine, for a real race car, would you do it differently? What about final drive, thinking about going to the biggest number possible to use the 6 speed.

The FD will depend purely on the course(s) you run. Is shifting the powerband worth potential extra shifts? This is keeping in mind that you'll also have forced induction.

Guard has done some LSDs for the platform, although I've never seen one in person, just heard of them.. Cusco and OS Giken also have cores available.

Brakes, really thinking about the Ap sprint but i woud like to do the 5x114 conversion to keep our current wheels which woud fit. Nobody seems to have tried the megan conversion kit.

AP Endurance is the way I'd go for sprint races, especially with more experienced drivers and FI. Also, make sure to get brake ducts; you'll need to make sure the forced induction piping allows for them.

Wheels are going to be RPF1 17x9 et35, pretty decided on that, this is what we have on our RSX

You'll need a small spacer to be safe with the BBK (~3mm is fine).

Camber plate: thinking about GC or RCE at the moment, maybe HSV too but it will depend on the coilover i choose.


Suspension and bushing: so confused about this, will need to make more research but i will eed ot upgrade every bushings and maybe arms, really not sure about those.

[plucas]

For a radiator, I would contact C&R Racing. They build many if not most radiators and oil coolers for NASCAR and most every other racing series in north america. Prices are very reasonable for custom applications and the quality is better than anywhere else you will find. PM me if you are interested in a good salesmen there email. I have dealt with him many times and he is very knowledgeable and will get you a good deal.

[puma]

hmm yeah, the more i think about it and read about the heat problems related to the FI race cars on this platform, i think i may be trying to build a V-Mount, i will than have to buy a custom radiator and intercooler, i'll keep their name close.

[puma]

Mike, is the Jackson racing upgradable, different pulley size? I really need to have the ability to swich between two power levels.


I know a vented hood is needed but we are not allowed in our serie, car exterior most stay stock looking.


You think the AP sprint kit may be short? i really liked the lightnest of the kit compared to the endurace. We will have brake ducts on it. Our 1 hour race is done on street tire so brakes aren't used as hard as with slicks.


as there been cases of people blowing up stock axles on the track?

[CSG Mike]

Have you considered just controlling power with the tune? Run a smaller pulley and detune for your desired power level. Or get a tune that can adapt to your gas.

There are tons of options available with a newer ECU, that your K20/K-Pro couldn't do.

I can cook AP Sprints if I'm doing time attack laps at about the same time the engine oil overheats and the tires give out (3 really hot laps). If you're running sprint races, it'll really depend on your drivers' ability levels, and their ability to conserve the car.

Yes, the driver's side inboard CV is usually what gives out.

[puma]

wow, that really makes me think twice about the sprint kit. We are running on cheap street tires though which are less hard on the brakes but still... at the same time, we do have some people running their race cars with stock calipers and disk size so i guess it can't be that bad.


are you aware if the endurance kit will fit under 17" wheels like those that i want to buy?


that was my question for the Jackson racing, there are smaller pulleys avalaible?


Oh and about our driver's ability, we won the championship in 2013 with a car that was less powerfull than many other cars so yeah, he is pretty good.

[CSG Mike]

Also, @puma, keep in mind that the FI section is the wrong section to ask that type of question in.

95% of that subforum doesn't actually have FI. Of the guys that have FI, maybe 5% will ever see the track. Of that small population, very few will stress the system to the point where they see a weakness or failure point.

Not to mention, everyone will defend their setup. You'll get much better results here.

Ourselves, Racecomp Engineering, Element Tuning, and Evasive Motorsports should be able to get you more reliable data to base your decision off of.

For the torque level you're looking for, I'd recommend a small turbocharger. You'll have more heat you need to bleed off, so cooling will be the toughest battle, but with a good fabricator, you'll be just dandy.

[puma]

yeah but i figured that most guys that come in the race forum aren't FI and are probably against it. That's without accounting the fact that not many people come in this sub forum.


usually those that go FI aren't the guys that like to go fast on the track. I must admit it will be the first time i do such extensive mod to a race car, our RSX was so simple, stock everything and BAM! 250 whp...


like i said in the other post, i like the placement of the Ptuning kit but i would need a smaller turbo and i am thinking about maybe doing a v-mount. I need to talk to the driver first who is going to pay for all of this


thanks for the help, if you guys have more ideas on what should be done to the car, please share.

[CSG Mike]

I do agree, the Ptuning kit is exellent. I've driven their s2k kit on track, and it was fine with basic heat management.

[xwd]

The MCS stuff is definitely proven in race environments, they have a number of people using them overseas in actual racing series, especially in Asia. Some of the early testing for their 2-way setup was done by Kota Sasaki at Suzuka who is a former GT300 champion.

HVT can also probably supply good race coilovers as well at a decent price if you give them a call.

[rice_classic]

Have you already seen this Puma: http://www.scion.ca/scion/en/lifestyle/racing Don't know if that applies to what you're doing but the series you're running in seems to be listed, or at least "was" listed for 2013.

My opinions on your build:

Engine: Whatever you go with, SC or Turbo, you may want to consider hitting your target WHP with pump gas for 2 reasons: 1) that will significantly reduce racing/operating costs dramatically and your pump gas in Canadia is terrific to begin with. 2) If you do find you need a "bit more room to grow" you can then upgrade a pulley, bump the boost and switch to race fuel. If I can be competitive on 94 octane, I will always choose that option.


Radiator: I've been around racing for over 10 years now I don't remember ever seeing a combo radiator/oil cooler being utilized personally. It's a terrific idea for a street car but for a race car it is my opinion that the two systems should function separately. I'm happy to discuss my reasoning separately if that want. Suggestion is get a good aluminum radiator with a proper screen in front of it to protect it from anything that might puncture it. (kind of like the OEM grill does). And get a separate oil cooler. If the oil cooler is in front of the radiator (which is OK) make sure it's flush against the surface of the radiator. If not (if there's a gap) make sure there's a fan on that side of the radiator because the turbulence in the gap while significantly decrease the flow of air through the radiator that is behind the oil cooler. Finally, you can make even a stock radiator perform MUCH better by the use of shrouding. Making sure NO air can flow around, under or above the radiator so that it all must flow through it. HUGE gains in efficiency when doing this.

edit: due to the reality of a FMIC as well you should definitely be looking at high-flow fans. Another great way to decrease under hood temps is to shield the header (like the OEM is) with a coating, wrap or actual welded on shielding. Just a thought.


Exhaust: I'm subscribed for this solution as well.


Coilover; I'm not a fan of remote reservoir shocks where the reservoir is any "distance" away from the shock. Don't get sold on lots of "adjustability" either because even the most expensive shocks out there have very little functional variance in the range the shock will operate in for the vast majority of their use (under 3"/sec). Get to know what's important on a shock dyno and pay attention to hysteresis. I know you're looking at a lot of off-the-shelf brands but honestly, you could literally find a set Bilsteins or Konis and have a professional shop rebuild/revalve them to your specs end up with something that performs better than just about anything you can pull off a shelf. (that's a pretty over-arching statement but hyperbole is used to make a point). So if choosing something off the shelf, make sure it's a road racing specific application and you really want to look at shock dynos. Call the manufacturer and ask for this. Don't get sold on marketing, look at the data!

Edit: It looks like Racecomp Engineering has you pointed in the right direction with recommendations. Still get a hold of those shock dyno print outs.

EDIT #2: Consider giving Performance Shock a call in California. They are located at Infineon Raceway. They build shocks for several professional teams, Koni USA defers to them as well and PS is who I use to rebuild my shocks. They can re-valve you want (if it's a rebuildable shock) and send you dyno graphs (and explain those graphs to you!). Their customer service is second to none. http://performanceshock.com/ If were to be dropping the $$$ you are on a new race build I would be calling Performance shock before anyone else.

Say you wanted a Koni 8211, or Ohlins or Penske with a custom valve job. Instead of buying the shock and sending it back out, they can do it all in house send you the shock already re-valved with the print outs. You should consider sending them an email and tell them what spring rate you are planning and corner weight (if you have that).

LSD, Clutch: KAAZ, OS Giken. http://www.osgiken.net/products.php?product=lsd As for the Final drive.. Consider how you make HP/TQ first and the length of your tracks. If you make broad fat Torque and not very peaky HP and have pretty long tracks then maybe shortening up your Final drive isn't needed. If you get peaky HP (like a centri SC) then staying in that very narrow power peak is important but make sure you don't run out of revs on a long track.

Brakes, If you don't need to do a lug conversion then don't unless absolutely needed or there's a performance advantage. You should be able to find a suitable brake upgrade without that need. DUCTING. Very important to find ducting. Duct the rear brakes also, due to the weight distribution of this car the rears will be doing plenty of work as well. Keep them cool, replace pads/rotors less often.

Wheels: looks like you've made up your mind.

Camber plate: Others have already provided good recommendations. No advice here other than make sure they STAY PUT.

Suspension and bushing: Spherical, specially in the rear of this car. There is no other place on this car that it's more needed than the rear. If it has a "range of motion" like a control arm, a spherical bushing is the way to go. Unfortunately I don't know who yet makes them for this car.

[puma]

[QUOTE=rice_classic;1641608]Have you already seen this Puma: http://www.scion.ca/scion/en/lifestyle/racing Don't know if that applies to what you're doing but the series you're running in seems to be listed, or at least "was" listed for 2013.


Yes, my serie is listed in their and i know we are going to be winning races so the extra money would be welcome, just hope it will still be there in a year or two.

My opinions on your build:

Engine: Whatever you go with, SC or Turbo, you may want to consider hitting your target WHP with pump gas for 2 reasons: 1) that will significantly reduce racing/operating costs dramatically and your pump gas in Canadia is terrific to begin with. 2) If you do find you need a "bit more room to grow" you can then upgrade a pulley, bump the boost and switch to race fuel. If I can be competitive on 94 octane, I will always choose that option.


Yeah 94 is the specified fuel for the SPC but in CTCC, they need to run the Race fuel (can't remember which one) so this is why i don't mind making the big horsepower with race fuel, i'll have to run it anyway. Not sure our pump gas is all that good with the ethanol they put in it now.


Radiator: I've been around racing for over 10 years now I don't remember ever seeing a combo radiator/oil cooler being utilized personally. It's a terrific idea for a street car but for a race car it is my opinion that the two systems should function separately. I'm happy to discuss my reasoning separately if that want. Suggestion is get a good aluminum radiator with a proper screen in front of it to protect it from anything that might puncture it. (kind of like the OEM grill does). And get a separate oil cooler. If the oil cooler is in front of the radiator (which is OK) make sure it's flush against the surface of the radiator. If not (if there's a gap) make sure there's a fan on that side of the radiator because the turbulence in the gap while significantly decrease the flow of air through the radiator that is behind the oil cooler. Finally, you can make even a stock radiator perform MUCH better by the use of shrouding. Making sure NO air can flow around, under or above the radiator so that it all must flow through it. HUGE gains in efficiency when doing this.

edit: due to the reality of a FMIC as well you should definitely be looking at high-flow fans. Another great way to decrease under hood temps is to shield the header (like the OEM is) with a coating, wrap or actual welded on shielding. Just a thought.


Yeah, wrap for the exhaust and ducting for the rad is certainly going to happen, i am used to work around rotaries and helped someone build a RX-8 for racing and boy did those need a lot of ducting to keep the rad at a good temperature. As far as the rad itself, the more i think about it the more i feel like trying to make custom V-Mount, what do you think?


Exhaust: I'm subscribed for this solution as well.


Coilover; I'm not a fan of remote reservoir shocks where the reservoir is any "distance" away from the shock. Don't get sold on lots of "adjustability" either because even the most expensive shocks out there have very little functional variance in the range the shock will operate in for the vast majority of their use (under 3"/sec). Get to know what's important on a shock dyno and pay attention to hysteresis. I know you're looking at a lot of off-the-shelf brands but honestly, you could literally find a set Bilsteins or Konis and have a professional shop rebuild/revalve them to your specs end up with something that performs better than just about anything you can pull off a shelf. (that's a pretty over-arching statement but hyperbole is used to make a point). So if choosing something off the shelf, make sure it's a road racing specific application and you really want to look at shock dynos. Call the manufacturer and ask for this. Don't get sold on marketing, look at the data!

Edit: It looks like Racecomp Engineering has you pointed in the right direction with recommendations. Still get a hold of those shock dyno print outs.

EDIT #2: Consider giving Performance Shock a call in California. They are located at Infineon Raceway. They build shocks for several professional teams, Koni USA defers to them as well and PS is who I use to rebuild my shocks. They can re-valve you want (if it's a rebuildable shock) and send you dyno graphs (and explain those graphs to you!). Their customer service is second to none. http://performanceshock.com/ If were to be dropping the $$$ you are on a new race build I would be calling Performance shock before anyone else.

Say you wanted a Koni 8211, or Ohlins or Penske with a custom valve job. Instead of buying the shock and sending it back out, they can do it all in house send you the shock already re-valved with the print outs. You should consider sending them an email and tell them what spring rate you are planning and corner weight (if you have that).


Hmm yeah that could be an option but we do race on different surfaces which means they might not always have the same settings. Plus, you really got to nail it or at least send them a couple of times which at the end, is going to cost as much as the expensive system. The nice thing with MCS is that he will valve in function of the spring rate you choose and then the adjustement is going to be around that. I also have a good suspension shop around that can revalve to what i want, the guy was an engineer for the Champkart serie and was rebuilding all the shocks of the serie. Still, my decision is not taken, i will take a look at Performance Shock.

LSD, Clutch: KAAZ, OS Giken. http://www.osgiken.net/products.php?product=lsd As for the Final drive.. Consider how you make HP/TQ first and the length of your tracks. If you make broad fat Torque and not very peaky HP and have pretty long tracks then maybe shortening up your Final drive isn't needed. If you get peaky HP (like a centri SC) then staying in that very narrow power peak is important but make sure you don't run out of revs on a long track.


Yeah i think we will start by running the car the way it comes, we'll see if we need a final drive afterwards. As far as the LSD, we'll see how the driver likes the OEM and if he feels the need for an upgrade, i am going straight to the proven Guard, he is expensive but no one comes close in term of quality, performance and service. Not the kind of thing i want to do twice. I see many people use the Cusco cover to fill in more oil, the Greddy is cheaper, anyone tried it?

Brakes, If you don't need to do a lug conversion then don't unless absolutely needed or there's a performance advantage. You should be able to find a suitable brake upgrade without that need. DUCTING. Very important to find ducting. Duct the rear brakes also, due to the weight distribution of this car the rears will be doing plenty of work as well. Keep them cool, replace pads/rotors less often.


Yeah the only reason i wanted to do the conversion is because we might keep our RSX and rent it, we have like 4 sets of wheels for it, the two platforms could share the wheels since they would have the same size and offset. I am pretty decided on the AP sprint so far.

Wheels: looks like you've made up your mind.

Camber plate: Others have already provided good recommendations. No advice here other than make sure they STAY PUT.

Suspension and bushing: Spherical, specially in the rear of this car. There is no other place on this car that it's more needed than the rear. If it has a "range of motion" like a control arm, a spherical bushing is the way to go. Unfortunately I don't know who yet makes them for this car.


Yeah i will need to upgrade pretty much all the bushing and really like spherical on our rsx so it will probably be it again. I haven't shop for that yet


thanks for your time and great help.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by puma

Yeah, wrap for the exhaust and ducting for the rad is certainly going to happen, i am used to work around rotaries and helped someone build a RX-8 for racing and boy did those need a lot of ducting to keep the rad at a good temperature. As far as the rad itself, the more i think about it the more i feel like trying to make custom V-Mount, what do you think?

V-Mount is interesting but most likely not needed. It if improves some fitment issues or allows for a much larger intercooler then maybe but I wouldn't put in the work if it's not warranted.

Hmm yeah that could be an option but we do race on different surfaces which means they might not always have the same settings. Plus, you really got to nail it or at least send them a couple of times which at the end, is going to cost as much as the expensive system. The nice thing with MCS is that he will valve in function of the spring rate you choose and then the adjustement is going to be around that. I also have a good suspension shop around that can revalve to what i want, the guy was an engineer for the Champkart serie and was rebuilding all the shocks of the serie. Still, my decision is not taken, i will take a look at Performance Shock.

Looks like you have that solved then.

As far as the LSD, we'll see how the driver likes the OEM and if he feels the need for an upgrade, i am going straight to the proven Guard, he is expensive but no one comes close in term of quality, performance and service. Not the kind of thing i want to do twice.

Most would say the same about the OS Giken. It's good enough for Ken Gushi's FRS (yeah I know, it's a drift car).
http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/04/...dy-scion-fr-s/

I see many people use the Cusco cover to fill in more oil, the Greddy is cheaper, anyone tried it?

I have not, but I would do that or something like it. The nice feature is that it's also tapped to allow for an external cooler if needed. Considering the power increase, traction level of the Contis and length of the sessions, I'm pretty sure this warranted.

Yeah the only reason i wanted to do the conversion is because we might keep our RSX and rent it, we have like 4 sets of wheels for it, the two platforms could share the wheels since they would have the same size and offset. I am pretty decided on the AP sprint so far.

Assuming the cost of lug conversion isn't massive then there's your answer right there.

I'm really looking forward to your work and progress as it is my intention of doing this very thing to my FRS in about 3-4 years.