SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by markw

So, now what about beating Fenter and Harvey, any aliens in our crowd? I'm going to El Toro July 11th to try my luck against the fast norcal guys. Debating on nationals, I think I may be good enough to trophy, or at least put myself in the upper half of the field which would be 17th or better.

Mark

I am decidedly not an alien, but I'm looking forward to my first trip out there. 36 registered as of this morning, and I know there are a few more people yet to register (solort isn't even registered yet from what I can tell).

We've got a good shot at getting our own run group like STX did last year.

[solort]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

I am decidedly not an alien, but I'm looking forward to my first trip out there. 36 registered as of this morning, and I know there are a few more people yet to register (solort isn't even registered yet from what I can tell).

We've got a good shot at getting our own run group like STX did last year.

I'm still on the fence about running an underprepped CS car vs a well prepped but underdog GS car. Which class do I want to get hammered in? Decisions, decisions

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by solort

I'm still on the fence about running an underprepped CS car vs a well prepped but underdog GS car. Which class do I want to get hammered in? Decisions, decisions

Run a prepped CS car. It's really not that much, Konis, TRD springs and bars, camber bolts, tires. Sell the neon to pay for the parts if need be.

[solort]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Run a prepped CS car. It's really not that much, Konis, TRD springs and bars, camber bolts, tires. Sell the neon to pay for the parts if need be.

You are probably right. My first event in car was a blast. I snatched a set of TRD springs for $210 shipped and hope to install them before the event next weekend. Are the higher spring rates front to back appx the same differential or will the car understeer or oversteer more from the stock springs? My car with Cusco front bar and too much legal front camber is just right...

So I really just need Konis and get Lee Grimes to degas and custom valve them and I should be good to go.

I will enjoy running CS again. Chris Harvey and I had some good battles in the NB Miata days...

But I can't sell the ACR. I need a torque fix occasionally...

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by solort

You are probably right. My first event in car was a blast. I snatched a set of TRD springs for $210 shipped and hope to install them before the event next weekend. Are the higher spring rates front to back appx the same differential or will the car understeer or oversteer more from the stock springs? My car with Cusco front bar and too much legal front camber is just right...

So I really just need Konis and get Lee Grimes to degas and custom valve them and I should be good to go.

I will enjoy running CS again. Chris Harvey and I had some good battles in the NB Miata days...

But I can't sell the ACR. I need a torque fix occasionally...

I think the Neon SRT-4 ACR is still the car to have in GS. How can you think a Focus ST is better? It weighs a shit load more, doesn't have a real diff, and only has marginally more power. Are wider wheels that much more beneficial?

[solort]

Originally Posted by SeanRTR

I think the Neon SRT-4 ACR is still the car to have in GS. How can you think a Focus ST is better? It weighs a shit load more, doesn't have a real diff, and only has marginally more power. Are wider wheels that much more beneficial?

Yeah, 17x8 wheels with 245s or 255s vs my 225s on 17x7 wheels really gives it an advantage in the sweepers. And the ST Ediff seems to be very effective. But I agree that the ACR should be competitive and I placed 1st and 2nd at 2 Tours (with a good driver, it should do even better). The big downfall is the 3 channel ABS brakes with lots of ice mode. So no threshold braking (if rear wheel is off ground and you apply brakes, they are not there). My FRS loves threshold braking...

And my ACR has the most legal front struts in the US (per a 4 hr Nationals protest due to camber envy)

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by solort

Yeah, 17x8 wheels with 245s or 255s vs my 225s on 17x7 wheels really gives it an advantage in the sweepers. And the ST Ediff seems to be very effective. But I agree that the ACR should be competitive and I placed 1st and 2nd at 2 Tours (with a good driver, it should do even better). The big downfall is the 3 channel ABS brakes with lots of ice mode. So no threshold braking (if rear wheel is off ground and you apply brakes, they are not there). My FRS loves threshold braking...

And my ACR has the most legal front struts in the US (per a 4 hr Nationals protest due to camber envy)

PM if you ever decide to sell that car.

[Locust]

Originally Posted by itzmik3

The next tour or pro that a protest could be administered would be at Nationals for us west coast guys (no we aren't driving all the way to Packwood lol).

I am just waiting to see once we see a side by side comparison with parts in their hands so this can finally be put to rest.

What's wrong with Packwood dude? Most scenic venue in the country.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

So the width of a human hair is equal to a degree of camber? Any stock units hitting over two degrees? Answer to both of those is no btw.

You're presupposing a cause-effect relationship with ZERO empirical evidence to back it up. In fact, the only empirical evidence anyone has actually bothered to collect shows that the Koni and OEM units are identical. Unless you have proof otherwise, you're descending to the level of chemtrail idiots.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by renfield90

You're presupposing a cause-effect relationship with ZERO empirical evidence to back it up. In fact, the only empirical evidence anyone has actually bothered to collect shows that the Koni and OEM units are identical. Unless you have proof otherwise, you're descending to the level of chemtrail idiots.

Whoa, internet tough guy, unwad your undies for a second and please realize that no car is hitting -2.x degrees on the stock shocks. You are basing you information on users using calipers to measure holes. I am basing my information on people using alignment machines measuring camber. How can you disqualify one and not the other to favor your setup?

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

Whoa, internet tough guy, unwad your undies for a second and please realize that no car is hitting -2.x degrees on the stock shocks. You are basing you information on users using calipers to measure holes. I am basing my information on people using alignment machines measuring camber. How can you disqualify one and not the other to favor your setup?

There is the guy at -1.9 degrees on stock shocks, which could easily be over 2 degrees on another machine - I have personally seen on my car a 0.3 degree variance between machines. Alignment data collected on different days, with different fuel loads, and potentially done by different techs isn't rigorous enough to be empirical.

At any rate, what you propose is that *somehow* (you can't even explain a mechanism for it) the koni shocks measure differently. Someone went and measured the koni and OEM shocks side by side and came up with the same numbers.

Are you calling this person a liar? Are you calling the Koni engineer a liar? If not, you need to start explaining - without contradicting the known measurements we have - in what way the Koni shock is different and how that achieves different camber numbers. Otherwise your argument is about as effective as saying "it's a combination of black magic and chemtrails."

If you are calling them liars, sack up and say it.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by renfield90

There is the guy at -1.9 degrees on stock shocks, which could easily be over 2 degrees on another machine - I have personally seen on my car a 0.3 degree variance between machines. Alignment data collected on different days, with different fuel loads, and potentially done by different techs isn't rigorous enough to be empirical.

At any rate, what you propose is that *somehow* (you can't even explain a mechanism for it) the koni shocks measure differently. Someone went and measured the koni and OEM shocks side by side and came up with the same numbers.

Are you calling this person a liar? Are you calling the Koni engineer a liar? If not, you need to start explaining - without contradicting the known measurements we have - in what way the Koni shock is different and how that achieves different camber numbers. Otherwise your argument is about as effective as saying "it's a combination of black magic and chemtrails."

If you are calling them liars, sack up and say it.

Well I have data from 5 frs/brz from the same rack, done by the same guy. Every stock shock car with bolts ranged from -0.9 to -1.3 (3 samples) and the two more recent koni replacement guys both hitting -2.2, one on trd springs, one a stock springs. Drivers are always in the car for the settings. I know this is a small "test" group, but you can't ignore the data. I am not calling anybody anything, I am stating the findings. Who is the guy that hit -1.9 on a stock car with stock camber bolts? In your HONEST opinion and experience do you think that is normal? Be realistic now, not defensive. BTW what did you hit?

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

Well I have data from 5 frs/brz from the same rack, done by the same guy. Every stock shock car with bolts ranged from -0.9 to -1.3 (3 samples) and the two more recent koni replacement guys both hitting -2.2, one on trd springs, one a stock springs. Drivers are always in the car for the settings. I know this is a small "test" group, but you can't ignore the data. I am not calling anybody anything, I am stating the findings. Who is the guy that hit -1.9 on a stock car with stock camber bolts? In your HONEST opinion and experience do you think that is normal? Be realistic now, not defensive. BTW what did you hit?

I haven't measured. I visibly gained some with the springs, and visibly had a lot less shoulder rollover on the tire. The Koni install was separate from the springs and I did not see any noticeable difference. ksconekiller reported he got no additional camber with the Konis.

On stock springs best I could hit was -1.2. Figure that a visibly noticeable gain is probably half a degree or more, that should give you a ball park.

It is entirely normal to see different people get wildly different camber results. Back in my Celica days this was pretty common - we had a range of different crash bolt sizes available and could use them in both holes. Some people though got -0.5 from the factory and some had -1.5. Some people could hit -3 with just one crash bolt and some people had to use both crash bolts just to hit -2.5.

Lastly, I am not inclined to pull out my engineering stats book right this second, but I am positive I could mathematically prove that your test group is nowhere near a statistically significant sample. Just because you got results you didn't expect means jack squat until your sample is big enough to raise your confidence level.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I haven't measured. I visibly gained some with the springs, and visibly had a lot less shoulder rollover on the tire. The Koni install was separate from the springs and I did not see any noticeable difference. ksconekiller reported he got no additional camber with the Konis.

On stock springs best I could hit was -1.2. Figure that a visibly noticeable gain is probably half a degree or more, that should give you a ball park.

For somebody who is bringing up math and statistics into the argument, this was rather amusing.

Originally Posted by renfield90

It is entirely normal to see different people get wildly different camber results. Back in my Celica days this was pretty common - we had a range of different crash bolt sizes available and could use them in both holes. Some people though got -0.5 from the factory and some had -1.5. Some people could hit -3 with just one crash bolt and some people had to use both crash bolts just to hit -2.5.

That's some good info, perhaps it would be worthy to share it with the celica forums? Failing to see how this relates to the FRS/BRZ, I am prettty sure that we have enough data from various threads on here stating where camber falls with crash bolts.

Originally Posted by renfield90

Lastly, I am not inclined to pull out my engineering stats book right this second, but I am positive I could mathematically prove that your test group is nowhere near a statistically significant sample. Just because you got results you didn't expect means jack squat until your sample is big enough to raise your confidence level.

So since you keep trying to make this personal and defensive. Ironically it's actually what I do for a living. The word "test" in my quote was in quotes for a reason. So in summary, you say my sharings don't mean squat, back that up by not having any data collected yourself and reference a different make/model that uses camber bolts in the upper and lower holes. Got it. I'm just going to say it one last time, I truly do not care, I am not protesting anything or will ever protest anything. I brought this up as the chatter is out there, some people care, some are bitter about it, some might get fucked by it(if it is every protested). Do whatever makes your boat float. Enjoy