Can you manually shift automatic version w/out the paddle shifters?

[buckets]

for everyone that is complaining about push up for upshift and push for down shift layout on most cars. You can do what i did and open up the shifter area and find the shift switches and reverse the wires.

[SUB-FT86]

@madfast
Since I go up through the gears I like pressing up instead and the same thing applies to downshifting.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Godzpeed

BMW has always used pull down to shift up and push up to shift down like a sequential gear box on the gear lever

M cars had proper paddle shift (right to shift up and left to shift down). regular Steptronic had pull to shift up and push to shift down until recently.

yes, i said this already.

and thats not the Tiptronic style paddles, Tiptronic uses buttons on the steering wheel. Those are the regular PDK shifter. you need to order the optional sport steering for proper paddle shift. the regular PDK wheel is still standard on every Porsche including the newest 991

WRONG! the cayenne still uses the "tiptronic" name and it uses the newer style toggle paddles. tiptronic originally used buttons, and i already said that, but to say that the toggle paddles are "PDK paddles" is WRONG!!! nitpicking is fun eh?

[FRSpdDmn]

Originally Posted by madfast

i disagree. the IS-F shows that you can have super quick shifts in a TC AT. as quick as DCT or AMT? no, but lets be honest here, you're splitting hairs if you want to talk about milliseconds. the cost and complexity of the DSG is it's downfall. firstly, low speed operation will never be as smooth as an AT. secondly, you're at the mercy of its computers way more than an AT. with the computer controlling the clutch, you never have full control. you're at the mercy of however it was programmed. with an AT you will at least have a viscous connection through the TC at all times. and lastly, the tranny is non-serviceable. out of warranty and the DCT dies? guess what? you're SOL...

the absolute best of both worlds is the Mazda SkyActiv AT. it uses a very small TC that locks up super early. you can think of it as a clutch slipping device, because basically that's all they're using it for. right now its on an economy car, but the principle of operation can be expanded to a sporty AT very easily. for example, combine the small TC, early lockup philosophy with the solenoids of the IS-F, and you'll get one awesome conventional AT.

To make the point that the IS-F's tranny is that much faster than other autos out there is just as much of splitting hairs as to say that a DCT is quicker than the IS-F's auto box. Which it is.

How is a DCT any less serviceable than an auto gearbox? It's not like a box of magic. It's just 2 manual gearboxes in one. Are you about to go open up the auto tranny in your 200k mile (insert vehicle here)?

News flash: Mazda's SkyActiv is a double-clutch automated manual (not revolutionary at this point). What IS revolutionary is that they added a torque converter that is used from 0-5 mph to smooth the launches (main complaint of the unit in the Focus).

What's with all the love for the slush box, anyway? They've gotten incredibly good for what they are, but they are not and will never be the best for true sports cars, let alone a racing application (drag racing being the exception).

[Godzpeed]

Originally Posted by madfast

yes, i said this already.



WRONG! the cayenne still uses the "tiptronic" name and it uses the newer style toggle paddles. tiptronic originally used buttons, and i already said that, but to say that the toggle paddles are "PDK paddles" is WRONG!!! nitpicking is fun eh?

Cayenne uses tiptronic is cuz they still use a torque converter transmission. the current steering wheel first appeared on the PDK 911s

[madfast]

Originally Posted by FRSpdDmn

To make the point that the IS-F's tranny is that much faster than other autos out there is just as much of splitting hairs as to say that a DCT is quicker than the IS-F's auto box. Which it is.

its not splitting hairs because the IS-F shifts waaaaaay faster than the run of the mill AT. vs a sporty AT like in the 370Z yes, there isnt a real world difference. but vs a civic? BIG difference...

How is a DCT any less serviceable than an auto gearbox? It's not like a box of magic. It's just 2 manual gearboxes in one. Are you about to go open up the auto tranny in your 200k mile (insert vehicle here)?

it's not a box of magic, but of unobtanium. if your DCT breaks you have only one recourse, send it back to getrag, borg warner, etc. you cannot have your local service dept open it up and replace parts. at most they can perhaps replace the clutches? but most everything else, you'd probably have to replace the entire tranny.

but the AT boxes? their components are shared with tons of other cars and parts are much more available than any DCT. if the IS-F's special solenoids crap out, yeah im sure there's not much you can do. but if a seal here or there is worn, im sure you can find a replacement a million times easier than one for a DCT...

News flash: Mazda's SkyActiv is a double-clutch automated manual (not revolutionary at this point). What IS revolutionary is that they added a torque converter that is used from 0-5 mph to smooth the launches (main complaint of the unit in the Focus).

wtf are you talking about? a double clutch auto-manual with a torque converter? do you even know what a TC does?

here, learn something:

[u2b]xxl2lcWTyLQ[/u2b]

What's with all the love for the slush box, anyway? They've gotten incredibly good for what they are, but they are not and will never be the best for true sports cars, let alone a racing application (drag racing being the exception).

the AT doesnt get the respect it deserves because manufacturers simply do not optimize its potential. a few component upgrades, some new software, etc. and you have a VERY competent AT. the IS-F and 370Z are examples of how good an AT can be. on the very upper end is the AMG MCT with clutch pack instead of TC. and of course, the FR-S/BRZ is the latest, and most relevant example. it doesnt use as advanced a solenoid as the IS-F, so it keeps cost down, but it uses upgraded ones. also they gave it a sport mode that uses very sporty programming. its a philosophical issue, NOT a design issue. the AT can be made VERY sporty if you so choose...

now im NOT saying its ultimately better than DCT or AMT. what im saying is that for MOST cars, the AT is a FINE transmission and can be made very sporty and perform just about as good as a DCT. DCT is simply not necessary for most cars, even sporty cars. AMG did it right. it reserves the DCT for their supercars (SLS), and keeps the MCT for their "regular" sporty cars (C63, etc.)...

Originally Posted by Godzpeed

Cayenne uses tiptronic is cuz they still use a torque converter transmission. the current steering wheel first appeared on the PDK 911s

yes. you said tiptronic was buttons, and that the toggle paddles were PDK paddles. that's wrong because the cayenne tiptronic uses the toggle paddles as well. so i was nitpicking because you were nitpicking. now that we're both nit free no more need to pick...

[FRSpdDmn]

Originally Posted by madfast

wtf are you talking about? a double clutch auto-manual with a torque converter? do you even know what a TC does?

here, learn something:

I can't see the link here at work. Yes, I know what a TC does. It seems I was a bit off, though, as I had skimmed this previously and went from memory. It's a stacked multi-plate wet clutch, not a concentric double-clutch like those currently on the market. So, the gearbox is basically like an automatic, but the power transfer device is more like a double-clutch unit (or a motorcycle's unit) over 5mph.

So here.... Learn something.
From Autoblog:

The second is an all-new six-speed automatic transmission. Frustrated with the inefficiency of a traditional torque converter at high speeds, and unwilling to accept the jerkiness of a dual-clutch system at lower speeds, Mazda designed what it feels is the best of both worlds. Its new Skyactiv-Drive automatic uses a torque converter below five mph for a smooth launch, However, at higher speeds the transmission uses a wet, multi-plate clutch just like a dual-clutch transmission does. This was not simple, and it requires a complete redesign of the torque converter – but since it only works at less than five miles per hour, it is smaller than a traditional unit (Mazda says its new transmission is seven percent better in fuel economy than its predecessor and more efficient than a dual-clutch or continuously-variable transmission). Mazda3 Skyactiv models with the new six-speed automatic transmission earn 28 mpg city and hit the all-important 40 mpg number on the highway.

Regarding serviceability, you're making broad assumptions based on what you think you know. Bring some facts to the table before you go running around telling everyone here that they don't know anything.

Regarding shift speed. I didn't realize we were comparing sports car transmissions to econo boxes. Yes, there are differences. Hell, I bet the IS-F shifts faster than the double-clutch in a Focus. Maybe. But who cares?

*Disclaimer: The following argument is really just for argument's sake. I'm not in total disagreement with what you're saying.*
As for an auto box being "good enough", I don't see where that logic applies. Every car company is striving to make cars better performing, more fuel efficient, more comfortable, etc etc.. Who wants a car that is touted as being "just FINE"? They can keep making the AT better and better and yes, it's probably good enough for 90% of the drivers out there. But the fact remains that the dual-clutch units are more efficient and better performing. As volumes are picking up, costs are going down as well, to the point that they will likely be on par with traditional automatics. For the typical buyer, AT's are fine. When you have Nissan selling 121,000 Altimas last year with all the automatics being CVT's, how picky is the average car buyer, really, if a CVT is good enough?

EDIT: I just watched the video and it was consistent with the quote from Autoblog above.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by FRSpdDmn

*Disclaimer: The following argument is really just for argument's sake. I'm not in total disagreement with what you're saying.*
As for an auto box being "good enough", I don't see where that logic applies. Every car company is striving to make cars better performing, more fuel efficient, more comfortable, etc etc.. Who wants a car that is touted as being "just FINE"? They can keep making the AT better and better and yes, it's probably good enough for 90% of the drivers out there. But the fact remains that the dual-clutch units are more efficient and better performing. As volumes are picking up, costs are going down as well, to the point that they will likely be on par with traditional automatics. For the typical buyer, AT's are fine. When you have Nissan selling 121,000 Altimas last year with all the automatics being CVT's, how picky is the average car buyer, really, if a CVT is good enough?

My main point is that DCTs are simply unnecessary if more high performance AT's existed. instead of finding ways to optimize the AT design, some manufacturers chose to go with dual clutches and CVTs.

imo ATs are actually making a small comeback. BMW chose to go with a ZF 8 speed in the new 3 series. they could have gone all DCT like audi, but didnt. ZF also has a 9 speed in the works and hyundai has a 10 speed. ATs can be made sporty and can give you good mpgs, thanks to compact planetary gearsets. i have more hope in a AT resurgence than the continued spread of DCTs. thankfully, the spread of CVTs have stalled and imo its mainly due to the continued development of the AT...

[FRSpdDmn]

Originally Posted by madfast

My main point is that DCTs are simply unnecessary if more high performance AT's existed. instead of finding ways to optimize the AT design, some manufacturers chose to go with dual clutches and CVTs.

imo ATs are actually making a small comeback. BMW chose to go with a ZF 8 speed in the new 3 series. they could have gone all DCT like audi, but didnt. ZF also has a 9 speed in the works and hyundai has a 10 speed. ATs can be made sporty and can give you good mpgs, thanks to compact planetary gearsets. i have more hope in a AT resurgence than the continued spread of DCTs. thankfully, the spread of CVTs have stalled and imo its mainly due to the continued development of the AT...

How much cheaper do you think it is to develop an 8, 9, or 10 speed gearbox than a DCT? There are reasons that autos are still around in most applications. They're smooth and customers are comfortable with them. It's taken, what, 80 years to get the AT to where it is today? As DCT's get smoother (they already are so much smoother than the original automated manuals), they will gain more traction. I'm actually quite impressed with how quickly they've gained ground since the first mass produced unit in the Audi TT 3.2. They had them working in high-power output applications within 10 years and they are only getting better. This is a good thing for everyone that both the autos and DCT's are improving.

[devinclfalcons]

Does anyone have a good, clear, picture of the automatic shifter? I have yet to see one...

[trifenix]

Originally Posted by Godzpeed

BMW has always used pull down to shift up and push up to shift down like a sequential gear box on the gear lever

M cars had proper paddle shift (right to shift up and left to shift down). regular Steptronic had pull to shift up and push to shift down until recently.

and thats not the Tiptronic style paddles, Tiptronic uses buttons on the steering wheel. Those are the regular PDK shifter. you need to order the optional sport steering for proper paddle shift. the regular PDK wheel is still standard on every Porsche including the newest 991

werd. BMW got it right. I drove a nissan 350z and was super confused for awhile.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by devinclfalcons

Does anyone have a good, clear, picture of the automatic shifter? I have yet to see one...

It almost looks like the manual box, except it moves in one straight line and has the PRNDS indicator taking over a part of the shift boot space. Clever visual detail if you ask me.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by FRSpdDmn

How much cheaper do you think it is to develop an 8, 9, or 10 speed gearbox than a DCT? There are reasons that autos are still around in most applications. They're smooth and customers are comfortable with them. It's taken, what, 80 years to get the AT to where it is today? As DCT's get smoother (they already are so much smoother than the original automated manuals), they will gain more traction. I'm actually quite impressed with how quickly they've gained ground since the first mass produced unit in the Audi TT 3.2. They had them working in high-power output applications within 10 years and they are only getting better. This is a good thing for everyone that both the autos and DCT's are improving.

DCTs have an uphill battle imo. regarding smoothness, they will never match the smoothness of an AT. smoothness basically means slipping the clutches which is bad for reliability and it means slower response. its just way too dependent on the computer and how it was programmed. im not so sure that we'll ever get to that point, where the computer gives you the exact amount of clutch modulation that you want.

regarding mpg, the compact planetary gearsets in the AT make it a very viable solution for the future. CVTs in theory are great, but they are weak and absolutely no fun. DCTs will run into packaging and weight problems if they try to squeeze increasingly more gears inside. ATs are on the brink of 9 speeds and even 10 speeds. the ZF 9 speed is also going to be a transverse FWD setup. that's quite compact. i dunno if a 9 speed transverse FWD DCT is on the horizon, but if it isnt, then the battle is already lost imo. so ATs imo are making a comeback as manufacturers figure out that they are the perfect middle ground between CVTs and DCTs. AND ZF's modular design makes it super easy to make the car a hybrid. again just look at the F30 3 series...

[FRSpdDmn]

We also said that AT's would never be as fast as manuals, but look how far they've come. AT's have been being developed for much longer than DCT's. Each still has their plusses and minuses. At this point, they are both viable options for street cars, for those who don't care about having the connection of a manual transmission. Manuals don't even get better fuel economy anymore

The 6+speed transverse AT's are coming, with the Dodge Dart possibly being the first to get that 9-speed, from what I understand. Personally, I think that adding more and more gears is just creeping toward CVT'ness, if you know what I mean. At this point, you're only shifting it manually if you're looking for high performance - in which case you're losing all that fuel economy that those gears are there to provide (sure you get closer gear ratios that can help acceleration) - but it's getting past the point of being fun. Even with a 6-speed manual, I frequently find myself skipping a gear or two (usually 5th) once I've gotten up to speed and settle into my cruising speed. A 7-speed manual, Porsche? Comeon.... We're not buying manuals at this point for their fuel efficiency.